Paul Ryan on Real Progressivism

Many people believe Democracy obsolete.
They are wrong.
Obsolete is the one thing
Democracy can never be.

R. Buckminster Fuller – “No More Secondhand God”

In responding to Rep. Paul Ryan’s speech to the Oklahoma Council on Public Affairs on March 31, even some of the constitutional conservatives on the HotAir headline thread and then again around the Quote of the Day gave both speech and speaker rave reviews. The general reaction to Ryan verges on “presidential boomlet,” and, really, why couldn’t this man be president, and as soon as we need him to be? He’s as qualified as… Woodrow Wilson was. He’s certainly as qualified as… Abraham Lincoln was. More qualified in many ways than various presidents any of us could bring up…

When people ask, as they often have over recent months, what I mean when I refer to “progressive conservatism,” I have often pointed to Paul Ryan. He’s not the only exemplar I could name, but he’s one of the best. Consider the entirety of his approach – and also consider passages in his speech like this one (our Contention of the Day bonus from last Friday):

The Democratic leaders of Congress and in the White House hold a view they call “Progressivism.” Progressivism began in Wisconsin, where I come from. It came into our schools from European universities under the spell of intellectuals such as Hegel and Weber, and the German leader Bismarck. The best known Wisconsin Progressive was actually a Republican, Robert LaFollette.

Progressivism was a powerful strain in both political parties for many years. Theodore Roosevelt, a Republican, and Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, both brought the Progressive movement to Washington.

Early Progressives wanted to empower and engage the people. They fought for populist reforms like initiative and referendum, recalls, judicial elections, the breakup of monopoly corporations, and the elimination of vote buying and urban patronage. But Progressivism turned away from popular control toward central government planning. It lost most Americans and consumed itself in paternalism, arrogance, and snobbish condescension. “Fighting Bob” LaFollette, Teddy Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson would have scorned the self-proclaimed “Progressives” of our day for handing out bailout checks to giant corporations, corrupting the Congress to purchase votes for government controlled health care, and funneling billions in Jobs Stimulus money to local politicians to pay for make-work patronage. That’s not “Progressivism,” that’s what real Progressives fought against!

(Emphasis added.)

For all I know, Ryan’s been talking this way for years, and I’ll assume barring hard evidence to the contrary that he picked up on this theme on his own, not from posts at the HotAir Greenroom and Zombie Contentions. He probably just sees the same thing that, say, Newt Gingrich saw when he started speaking about “real progress and real change” sometime during the last decade. It’s a completely natural and congenial way, in my view one of the better ways, to approach our political moment both theoretically and practically – even if it seems to conflict with the tactic of all-out, all-conflating assault on and total condemnation of progressivism, an alternative but equally natural, if arguably less promising, response to our fundamental political disagreement with today’s nominal progressives.

The sections in Ryan’s speech that deal directly with “real progressives” vs “regressive” progressives represent only a small part of his manifesto, but the critique is interwoven throughout, and implicitly invoked whenever Ryan refers to “Progressivists” rather than to “progressives,” emphasizing the distinction between those who merely exploit a tradition or belief system, and those who represent its authentic spirit.

In short, Ryan wants to deny anyone the sole possession of this political turf. A proud Wisconsinite, he is understandably reluctant to reject his state’s political tradition – a brand of progressivism known as “the Wisconsin Idea.” And why shouldn’t Ryan be proud? As he points out, and as I have found myself repeatedly having to point out, many elements of progressivism are so deeply embedded in our political life, not just in progressive states but nationwide, that hardly anyone questions them at all. Instead, conservatives all across America have been and are making good use of them – including the primary campaign, the citizen initiative, the insistence on transparency and on the rights of an informed citizenry. Rather than asserting a fundamental contradiction between his “real” progressivism and constitutionalism, Ryan asserts and demonstrates their dynamic interdependence. And why shouldn’t Paul Ryan of WI seek to hold this ground, not just for his own sake, but for our sake in the effort to build a winning and, eventually, a governing coalition?

As for Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and their followers, they may not deserve association with the most evil tyrants in world history, but they really do have something in common with the worst traitors to real progressivism.  They have reversed the original progressive demand for citizen empowerment. In so doing they have, arguably, embraced what makes “liberal fascism” fascistic (and illiberal).  They have crossed – are crossing – the line between authentic political progress, real progressivism, and its opposite.

The spirit of the Progressive Era was much broader than the ideas and policies of any particular leader or intellectual, but the examples of TR and Wilson, whom Ryan describes as having “brought the Progressive movement to Washington,” remain instructive. Running for president on the Bull Moose/Progressive Party platform in 1912, Roosevelt and his allies called for national referenda and measures enabling the popular recall of federal officials. One of Wilson’s central criticisms of congress in the work that made his name was aimed at the customary secret deliberations of all-powerful committees.  First as governor of New Jersey and then as president, Wilson liked to call for “pitiless publicity” as the best means of exposing and ending corruption and misgovernment. In the battle to gain approval of the League of Nations, before being permanently sidelined by an incapacitating stroke, Wilson at one point proposed a national referendum on the issue, and had prepared to make the elections of 1920 into one. Earlier, the progressive opponents of Wilson – who included the Wisconsinite whom Ryan mentions, Robert LaFollette – had called for a national referendum on entering World War I. (They probably would have lost.)

Can anyone imagine Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid, for all of their bluster about being on the side of the people, putting Obamacare to a popular vote?  Which side in the current fight is trying to make the 2010 elections into a referendum on a Obamaism?

Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to ask for the people’s direct OK on Obamacare. Maybe we should have been asked directly about TARP, about the bailouts, about raising the debt ceiling, about the Stimulus or Son of Stimulus. Maybe we should be consulted directly when the debt commission issues its recommendations. No value added taxation without referendum! I’d have a good feeling about a popular vote on some version of Ryan’s Road Map versus the Obama-Pelosi-Reid-style budget gimmickry.

I even find myself attracted sometimes to the ultra-progressive ideas of Buckminster Fuller, who, in his wonderfully excessive prose-poetic essay “No More Secondhand God,” written at the outset of World War II, proposed a system of direct mass democracy via a kind of proto-internet (“electrified democracy”), which he conceived of as the total repudiation and rejection of the barbarism then engulfing the world. He answered fears of “mob rule” with an idealistic faith in an educated citizenry, and with an engineer’s trust in the political design he drafted.

We don’t have to go that far, or even as far as TR wanted to go. This year’s mid-terms, which Ryan views as the last stop before the end of American exceptionalism and constitutional government, may be referendum enough if they put a congressional bloc in place sufficient to impair Obamacare’s implementation.

Still, I’d be happy to see the national question framed as follows, winner take all: Who are the real progressives in 2010, the real supporters of progress, the real spokespersons for a better future – the proponents or the opponents of Obamacare?

I know Paul Ryan’s answer. He makes it very clear. I agree with him, and I think that the American people, overall, agree with us.

98 comments on “Paul Ryan on Real Progressivism

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  1. Does this mean you don’t think we should ridicule “progressives” like Barbaraaa Boxxxer, Bawney Fwank, Queen Sheila Jackson Leeaaaaaaaaaahh, and Arlon Spectour?

    I like Wisconsin’s Ryan too. He ran circles around Mister Peanut at Blair House. He grew up poor and he’s still poor. He sleeps on the floor of his office he’s so poor. His family has to stay in Wisconsin he’s so poor.

    I think he deserves to be elected President. He wouldn’t have to sleep on the floor anymore, and he’d have his wife and kids with him all the time upstairs at The White House, right?

  2. @ Lotus Feet:
    It means I think we should attack ’em just like I’ve been saying we should attack ’em – not let them pose as the defenders of “progress” when they are the enemies of progress. Hit ’em where it hurts – and in the meantime not miss the chance to recuperate what once made progressivism a deeply American and broadly popular approach to politics, and what still makes it an appealing idea to large numbers of Americans who should be on our side.

  3. Democracy is the only form of government that is inherently moral. Monarchy is based on the theory that a country is the private property of a family whose owner can will it to his descendants. Dictatorship is based on the theory that a hooligan can grab a country and call it his own. In the case of North Korea, the two theories are joined.
    THE BLESSED HUMAN RACE ends with the words “Democracy is the political realization of the scientific method.”

  4. @ George Jochnowitz:
    Yes, but the devil is in the details, sir.

    Democracy could result in mob rule in which one 51% group can ignore and tread on everybody else, like Hairy Reed and Emperor 0baba are currently trying to do.

    The Founders were wary of this outcome. We now have a haywire non balance of power. There are now tens of millions of people with government jobs from which they think they can never be fired, and the rolls of the drone bureaucrats is growing. How do you think they’re gonna vote? And, then you’ve got the unionized GM and Chrysler workers who got bailed out ahead of the companies’ bond holders. Think they’ll vote for lower taxes and a more modest government?

    Democracy is just a word and the devil is in the details, Mr. J.
    Just ask James Madison.

  5. @ Scientific Socialist:
    We’ll find out how they vote, but the cynicism about democracy expressed in those arguments may itself be debilitating.

    We used to take it on faith that, if given a chance to vote, the citizens of the Communist dictatorships would overthrow their leaders in the ballot box. That’s certainly what the Communists themselves believed – thus their refusal to allow free and fair elections, and their insistence on rigged votes.

    It’s possible – I would guess likely – that “pure democracy” would result in a society more “socialistic” than preferred by radical constitutionalists, at least in the short term, but what Madison was warning against and what we’d need to guard against are two different things. Consulting the people, utilizing modern means to do so that Madison couldn’t have dreamt of, isn’t or wouldn’t have to be the same thing as instituting unchecked mob rule.

    As for Fuller’s visionary ideas, he anticipated the Madisonian argument, and responded with praise of the American public, whom he at the time (1940) observed as being virtually immune to the war fervor sweeping the globe. We don’t know what kind of evolutions, feedback responses, and synergies (Fuller’s word, of course) an electrified democracy would discover. I’d love to see some modern American city give it a whirl, just to see!

  6. @ Scientific Socialist:

    James Madison knew that democracy didn’t simply mean majority rule but rather a system that included checks and balances. Madison, more than anybody else, gave us our ever-evolving Constitution, the document that has made us great.

  7. The great danger or flaw in pure democracy, even using modern methods undreamed of by Madison is the popular whim of the moment.

    Witness the adulation now accruing to Rep. Ryan, of whom I am a big fan too. Was it less than a month ago that we were hearing the same of Sen. Brown? And before that of Sarah Palin?

    I am a fan of all three and of Palin and Ryan for quite some time before they burst upon the national stage. But I think the willingness to promote any of them for the Presidency has at least as much to do with reaction to the disaster that is Obama, as it is the personal qualities and qualifications of any of the aforementioned.

    As many have pointed out, we have a representative republic that uses democracy as the methodology for electing such representatives to Congress and the Presidency.

    I’m sympathetic to “progressive conservatism,” provided that the ‘progress’ it advocates lies within the founding principles of this country. Methods and laws change, principles are forever.

  8. Cmac, notwithstanding your obvious virtue, intelligence and good looks, you seem naive on this to me. There is a big difference between cynicism and skepticism, and I am the skeptic. I come from Cheekago, where politicians manipulate the vote, mobilize hordes of city and county workers to work the vote, own judges, intimidate journalists and have perfected many lawyerly schemes like challenging petitions which disenfranchise those of us who only vote once in each election and do not vote for Aunt Emily who died last year or for our neighbor, Ms. Schmegegee, who is in Florida and votes there too. I don’t put anything past these disciples of Saul Alinsky, and the 0bami are dead set on turning the entire nation into Cheekago.

  9. Yea, but cha godda see dat ‘progressives’ are loosers in Cheekago and, unless Paul Ryan starts walkin’ on wadda, dey’ll be loosers in Washington too, Pal. Fo da health care, dey leaned on der progressives just like dey do in Cheekago, and, guess what, dey got it , and dat’s what counts. Votes talk and people walk, or sumpin like dat, my frem.

  10. Didn’t Rep. Ryan himself vote to ‘give bailout checks to large corporations’?

    Anyway, he’s a powerful and articulate voice for Republicans in Washington, but I doubt he’d go very far in a Presidential primary.

  11. @ John S:
    Ryan’s NOT a perfect conservative. But he’s ahead of at least 95% of the rest.

    All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity. – Mark Twain’s Autobiography

    Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But… I repeat myself. – Mark Twain, a Biography

    It is the foreign element that commits our crimes. There is no native criminal class except Congress. – More Maxims of Mark Twain

  12. Your point about terminology is well taken.

    Perhaps rather than “Progressive conservative” though, a better term might be something like “Individualist progressives” as opposed to “Statists.”

    George Will has recently leaned toward describing the left as “statist,” avoiding the hyperbole that gets attached to other labels.

  13. @ billd:
    The terms we use should suit the points we’re trying to make, I think. Some people, for instance, like to point out that there was an unsuccessful Canadian party that went under the name “progressive conservative.” I’m not really sure why that should matter to us.

    That use of the word “progressive” and combining it with its supposed antonym may cause confusion is fine. The idea is to undermine the left’s false claim to the word “progress,” and to emphasize the left’s betrayal of aspects of progressivism that deserve to be safeguarded, revived, or extended – and that also happen to be quite popular. The idea is also to remind conservatives of their own assumptions – since there’s a tendency to latch onto impressively fierce-sounding rhetoric whose implications very few real, existing voters will ever embrace, and for good reason.

    The brand of radical constitutionalism in fashion on the far right may serve a purpose, but reduced to a dogma it becomes a dead end, and exposes its proponents to embarrassment, either directly or in relation to some of the other political elements it tends to attract.

  14. I think multi-word, multi-syllabic party names have never been and never will be popular with the masses.

    Mister Peanut understands this. How many syllables do the words hope & change have, my frems? Ryan can win if he runs as Paul, not Paul Ryan, not even Ryan. Think about it, whose gonna win in a contest between Obama and PAUL?

    Has anyone heard about keeping it simple, my frems?

    If I had a party, I would not call it the Lotus Feet Party or even the Lotus Foot Party. I’d call it the KISS Party. People smile when they hear the word kiss, don’t they?

    As they continue to see Mister Peanut’s arrogant puss on the TV every day, day after day, don’t more and more people want him to just kiss off? Don’t a growing per-centage want him and the rest of the bloated government to just kiss their @$$ and go away?

    Join the Kiss Party, my frems. Tell them, don’t go away mad, just go away, OK?

  15. Authenticity wars are usually tedious at best. Intellectuals and ideologues are always fighting them. Besides, in this case such a quarrel necessarily ignore the question why ur-Progressivism morphed into its alleged opposite. I suspect that any movement that mobilizes the public en masse to circumvent the conventional machinery of representative government is bound to render the latter vulnerable to other arbitrary encroachments – say, to bureaucratic self-aggrandizement. The old form atrophies from disuse while newer, supposedly more efficient and advanced ones compete over its former prerogatives. Once you hold “progress” to be your objective, how do you sanctify procedures? The answer is you don’t. You are already on the slippery slope.

  16. Seth Halpern wrote:

    You are already on the slippery slope.

    We are always already slipping around. The system is always already being encroached upon and is vulnerable to encroachment.

    The main justification for political progressivism was the perception that the “conventional machinery” had been or was in the process of being circumvented, superseded, or rendered dysfunctional. It’s also worth keeping in mind that the progressives were, overall, quite idealistic about the law: They sought to utilize the system’s own capacities for self-repair, not to overthrow or replace the system, though in the process the more visionary progressives and crypto-progressives, like Wilson, did assert their right to think beyond the system.

    As for why “ur-Progressivism morphed into its alleged opposite,” why, as an observer of human nature and human history, would you expect anything else? The first progressives were closer in time to the Founding than we are to them.

    My narrative would be that multiplicitous movements for change arising out of the Reconstruction period had already achieved many of their most important political goals – not the same as policy goals, but in some cases those as well – by the time that the political intellectuals of the day started seeking to codify and systematize the movement. Their results were inevitably reductive and parochial. By the time the 2nd wave or generation of progressivism got under way in the 1920s, progressivism was already a different movement, organized around new issues as well as old, unfinished business, and being driven by new forces in new directions. By the time we reach our period, the nominal progressives have lost all touch with the spirit of progress, other than perhaps some remnant faith, not to be entirely discounted, in the “progress” of social justice and a very retrograde set of notions about how the state can go about achieving it.

  17. I would enthusiastically support Ryan were he to run for president. I am, as I have from time to time made no effort to conceal, a fan of La Palin. In fact I love the gal! I recognize, however, and with no small alarm, that a very respectable part of her appeal for me is a wish to see an in-your-teeth conservative woman in the White House, with the heaviest emphasis on “woman” imaginable, a woman who is such a rebuke to the catastrophes dogmatic feminism has wrought for 35 years. I write “alarm” because I can see in my preference an analogue to the recent hysteria over electing a black man, full stop. There is a serious danger, I believe we can all safely admit it now, in selecting a candidate so one dimensionally.

    The main counter-arguments I proffer myself over the possibility that I have, not so much a policy preference for, as a huge crush on Sarah, are (1) that I can think of no political position that she supports that I don’t; and (2) that she has a record of solidly defensible accomplishments in Alaska. I’d have preferred that she finish her term. I do not much doubt her when she says the job was becoming impossible. The media was (and is) gunning for her in a manner that, by comparison, made Ahab’s pursuit of his whale a desultory weekend hobby. A self-appointed gynacologist such as “Milky Loads” Sullivan would unnerve anybody of sound mind. If a woman may not expect that her womb is off limits to rancid political fantasy, she is surely entitled to wonder what Everests of ignominy the media would not dedicate themselves to “investigating” when it came to her actions as a sitting governor? At the same time, it would be naive of me to think that the thought of several years of uninhibited campaigning for the White House did not influence her as much if not more.

    I am no Wisconsin political maven, so I must ask: “How long has Paul Ryan been around? What has he accomplished? Fluent speechifying? Now more than ever it’s reasonable to ask: So what? It is not cynical to point out, I think, that for a Wisconsin politician to invoke Teddy Roosevelt and the sainted LaFollette could be more practical than principled.

  18. How about this,if we had a sustaneable financial system as a nation,we could only afford “limited” progressive agenda items,because they should always be funded. Our problem is as follows, and if we can change this basic flaw in our system,we can start to move away from our fiscal insanity,(please read this very carfully,because the whole defect is explained right here by THE PRAGMATIC CAPITALIST)*

    “We do not fund our spending via taxes. We do not print bonds to finance our spending. China is not our banker. Neither is Japan and neither is anyone else. As the sovereign issuer of the currency in a non-convertible floating exchange rate system we simply print money and control the money supply via monetary operations, taxes and spending and those who truly believe we can default on our national debt are wrong.”

    *THE PRAGMATIC CAPITALIST believes in the sustanability of our system as described above. Obviously, I don’t.

    http://pragcap.com/volcker-tax-increases-coming-soon-to-an-economy-near-you

  19. I can’t hold back,check out this headline from WP for a LOL

    Jobless Rate May Rise as Many Come Back to the Labor Force

    Please Recall that if we use 1980 criteria for figuring unemployment,we get 20%,from my Economics classes,25% was the old criteria for a major Depression.

  20. @ Joe NS:
    He’s more a wonk than a speechifier. You raise an interesting question tho for anyone musing about Ryan’s future. All I really know about him is that he’s a man with a plan, that he’s quite articulate regarding his main areas of interest, and that he’s a workout obsessive (from a recent puff piece). His legislative history is minimal.

  21. Unfortunately,the only politician who has anything to say about the fiscal core that THE PRAGMATIC CAPITALIST is describing,is Ron Paul,and that’s going nowhere. I wonder what Ryan’s thoughts on that description might be. I would guess that he’s not one to rock the boat very much in terms of changing our fiscal underpinings.

  22. @ Lotus Feet:
    It means that Joe needs to get out more and ease back on the Palin dreams.

    What kind of wonderful conservative woman thinks the job of governor in a state populated to the extent of a single congressional district is impossible for her to perform?

    This is the stuff of Joe’s whitehouse dreams ?

  23. @ Lotus Feet:
    It’s a reference to a mini-scandal or maybe a better word is an embarrassment connected to the publication of some very sexually explicit personal ads Sullivan apparently placed some years ago. Apparently, they were well known to a circle of cognoscenti. I believe it was when Sullivan first started getting gynecological in re Palin that the blogger Ace O’Spades declared them fair game.

  24. @ fuster:
    C’mon fussy. Can’t we advance the discussion even by a tad? I’m thinking less and less that you’ll have Palin to kick around as a candidate in ’12, If I’m not just overreacting to that American Stories show, and Palin isn’t running, then that would make dealing with what she represents rather than with her personal pluses and minuses more important.

  25. @ CK MacLeod:
    Sometimes, I just can’t help it, Tsar. I see things written by seriously intelligent folks here and I simply can’t believe that they get so carried away that they dismiss the obvious.

    Again, I’ll not advance beyond saying that anyone who considers Palin as a good choice, at this point, is dreaming.
    And again, I’ll repeat that she makes for, potentially, a good candidate, but she’s got a lot to do and learn before she should be taken as anything more than a potential candidate.

    If that’s fussy, fine.

  26. @ CK MacLeod:
    That still does not explain milky loads, Tsar.

    I well understand that Sullivan is a big twit, and I know that he was one of Dukakis’ most ardent fans, but milky loads, vot’s dot, my frem?

  27. @ fuster:
    That’s marvelous and you must have a really high IQ & I don’t know how you do it so fast, but that still doesn’t answer my question!

  28. @ Lotus Feet:
    They haven’t tested it lately, Feets.
    Further explanations should be available from your parents or Hygiene teacher and will probably be furnished when they judge the time to be right.

  29. @ Lotus Feet:
    since you insist, “milky loads” was the term Sullivan apparently used as an expression for the semen that he liked to distribute liberally, or have distributed liberally, I forget which. Couldn’t dig up the original post referring to same on an initial search. Would likely have been late Aug/early Sept ’08 at the Ace of Spades blog.

  30. Talking about Sullivan, is quite distasteful, it does beg the question how low does one have to go before the Times of London, and the
    Atlantic dismiss him, for generalized gynaphobia, onset anti Semitism,
    aggregious anti Catholic sentiment. The Iowahawk parody of a late
    Noir take on his ‘journalism,’ is revenge enough

  31. CK MacLeod wrote:

    Seth Halpern wrote:
    You are already on the slippery slope.
    We are always already slipping around. The system is always already being encroached upon and is vulnerable to encroachment.
    The main justification for political progressivism was the perception that the “conventional machinery” had been or was in the process of being circumvented, superseded, or rendered dysfunctional. It’s also worth keeping in mind that the progressives were, overall, quite idealistic about the law: They sought to utilize the system’s own capacities for self-repair, not to overthrow or replace the system, though in the process the more visionary progressives and crypto-progressives, like Wilson, did assert their right to think beyond the system.
    As for why “ur-Progressivism morphed into its alleged opposite,” why, as an observer of human nature and human history, would you expect anything else? The first progressives were closer in time to the Founding than we are to them.
    My narrative would be that multiplicitous movements for change arising out of the Reconstruction period had already achieved many of their most important political goals – not the same as policy goals, but in some cases those as well – by the time that the political intellectuals of the day started seeking to codify and systematize the movement. Their results were inevitably reductive and parochial. By the time the 2nd wave or generation of progressivism got under way in the 1920s, progressivism was already a different movement, organized around new issues as well as old, unfinished business, and being driven by new forces in new directions. By the time we reach our period, the nominal progressives have lost all touch with the spirit of progress, other than perhaps some remnant faith, not to be entirely discounted, in the “progress” of social justice and a very retrograde set of notions about how the state can go about achieving it.

    Well, CK I have stayed out of this about as much as I can. The original progressives (what they called themselves) are directly based upon the idea that intelligent men sitting in positions of power can use the power of government to improve the situation of men. In the latter 19th century they fell upon the notions of Rousseau and the failed French revolution and from the progressive’s loins sprung communism, socialism, fascism, modern liberalism – all forms of state control of society. And this all happened before the 2nd wave of which you speak in the 1920s – in fact Cooledge was the opposite, very much a strict originalist. The coercive use of state power by Wilson alone is dramatic and FDR used it as a model with smoother edges.

    This argument did exist at the Founding, with the Jeffersonian Democratic-Republicans fashioning an agrian republic with essentially mass direct democracy component. They didn’t desire the strong central government and actually felt that the Federalists desire for a strong economic policy fashioned on the British model with a relatively strong – yet restricted – Federal government was an explicit danger. They called Federalists royalists as the 1800s approached and the Federalists were terrified of the passion of unchecked democracy as mob rule. As the Federalists had won the day at the convention a decade earlier, the impediments to the utilization of Federal power and the blocking of direct democracy as well were entrenched. How the later 19th century and earlier 20th century US progressives morphed into central government fascist types is an interesting discussion. Yes, the progressive movement did things that we could equate with progress, but in the end took the ugliness of more direct democracy along with massive increases in state power to create the mess we have now, where essentially the 10th amendment means nothing. Neither of the primary philosophies present at the beginning of the 1800s buys that combination. The 10th amendment was added directly to document that the Federal govt’s power was retricted. This is totally opposite of what progressives preach. That our republic survived and blossomed through this period is a testament to the original brilliance of the republican form of government and its inherent check on unfettered power. Of course 100 years later, it is cracking and we find ourselves out on a ledge, trying to decide if we can get back before it collapses.

    The danger in linking the general notion of progress to the term progressives, lies in the fact that one of your normal paeans to progressivism is the suffrage of women, which in fact was instituted in a very non-progressive way, by an actual amendment of the constitution, as was the direct election of US Senators. Progressives look to the use of state power and the bureacracy to create a utopia on earth, the improvement of man. They have always felt that way. Of course, it is according to their version, which may not be yours and mine. Your mixing of the words is dangerous.

    That we can immediately get back to some more reasonably limited form of government will take time and Ryan’s proposal is a realization of that point. AS for me, SS, Medicare and Obamacare all go beyond what is allowed under the Constitution. The difference of course is that SS and Medicare were bipartisan and publicly popular. That the detractors of both have been proven correct – particularly those of Medicare – is of little comfort. Unwinding them will take time. As to Obamacare, it features neither of these conditions; it is unpopular, and highly partisian, with ZERO support from the minority party. Its overthrow, as Kentucky apparently has done with an earlier state version which brings me hope, is possible. As we watch the Massachusetts model implode before our eyes, we can only hope the populace figures it out it time.

  32. The role of religion in all of this political to-ing-and-fro-ing has not been mentioned here even once. Given the religious propensities of Americans since colonial times, I find that odd to say the least; yet not one fact in the evolution of American democracy can be addressed without considering the subject that makes all intellectuals uneasy – and there are more than a few of us contributing here who nurse the typical intellectual’s self-image, I suspect, along with which posture, seemingly always, comes discomfort and even disdain for the whole subject, an it’s-so-much-more-comfortable-if-people-of-faith-just-keep-such-matters-to-themselves sensibility. I believe that that is still particularly true of Jewish intellectuals who are either attacking religion from the radical left, where most of them still reside, or else avoiding mention of it except, occasionally, in wholly and crassly political terms.

    The political crisis that erupted during the Bush years, which was a long time abuilding, was driven first and foremost by a reflexive, atavistic hatred, no less harsh word will really do here, the for the public expressions of religious sentiments by anyone in government, especially the Federal government. When Bush, during the 2000 campaign, answered a question b y sayingthat the philosopher who influenced him most was Jesus Christ, left-liberal types, even of the non-rabid variety, guffawed, snorted, hooted, and mocked. They simply could not credit the remark as anything more than a vote-getting ploy. Anyone who knows the first thing about George W. Bush also knows how mistaken such a judgment was. As Bush said, elaborating on his reply, “He changed my life,” which, all things considered, is high praise indeed for any “philosopher,” but also has the additional benefit of being true. Christian faith did profoundly change George Bush. That is an avowal that so-called secularists simply cannot absorb with equanimity or even indifference. It brought forth unimaginably vile hatreds, the same visceral and bilious excrescence that is at the core of the loathing for Sarah Palin expressed by dogmatic feminists and homosexuals, for whom religion is nothing but an obstacle to their agenda.

    Chesterton shrwedly pointed out that America is “a nation with the soul of a church.” Tocqueville returns again and again to the subject of Americans’ religious longings. Read Perry Miller’s Errand into the Wilderness if you wish to to see explicated the vital, animating presence of religion in this country since the earliest European settlement. In the run-up to the revolution the writers most frequently quoted and appealed to by the founders as justifying their intended course of action were not Locke or Montesquieu or Beccaria, as the progresssive historians would have us believe, but the tracts of largely forgotten New England preachers on the conflicy between God and Mammon in the hearts of believers. If you truly want to understand the reasons for the transformation of Jeffersonian direct-democracy into a mania for meddling by the highest levels of government in the affairs of American citizens, it’s impossible even to begin without taking into account the simultaneous transformation, over the course of the 19th century, of the original Puritan impulse into the Social Gospel movement of the early 20th century. The mediator of the transformation lie in the gradual secularization of the New England churches from devout Congregationalism to a spectacle such as Unitarianism, the Un-Church under the influence of the so-called Transcendentalists.

    Religious political fervor burned bright right through the Civil War. Without it, there would very likely not have been a Civil War. It was revived again by William Jenning Bryan at the turn of the century, the progressive heyday. You wish to understand, you say, the fons et origo of Progressivism, yet still wish to be unburdened of religion? You are on a fool’s errand – very definitely into a wilderness lacking coherence, meaning, or purpose, where matters must seem mysterious, son that vague and platititudinous allusions to vast social transformations, dynamic tensions, awesome challenges, and so on and so forth – as if such vaporous causal modalities have ever been absent – may seem to hold explanatory power, while simultaneously offering only the most tepid motive power.

    What happened in the 20s to the Social Gospel was that the “Gospel” was first neglected, then rejected, and then ejected from political discourse, something quaintly un-progressive, which was, and still is, a demarche truly alien to American culture at large as a matter of mere history but, of course, was, and is, quite easily managed by a bureaucratically minded elite that now proudly secular, which is to say, only secular. Only the “Social” remained. It is with a religious zombie that we contend when we contend with modern Progressivism.

    Zombies are hard to kill, as anyone who visits this site might be expected to know.

  33. Islam is trying to teach the world what faith means. Nobody is learning.
    The earth is round, despite the account of the Creation in the first chapter of Genesis. The world of politics is also round. Extremes meet. Leftist progressives are like rightist progressives. The anti-Washington slogans of the Tea Party and the Palin campaign sound remarkably similar to the slogans of the New Left in the 1960s.
    North Korea is the country in the world most dominated by faith–albeit an atheistic faith. Faith is what unites Kim Jong-il with Ahmadinejad.
    The Sunni-Shiite wars in the Middle East are an echo of the Protestant-Catholic wars of the 16th century.
    We humans are intelligent. We should think and question and debate. There is no sin greater than blind faith.

  34. You’re still making assertions, JEM, based on no apparent evidence – possibly on a reading of Liberal Fascism (which on your suggestion I’ve been re-reading). Where do you get the definition of progressivism as “directly based upon the idea that intelligent men sitting in positions of power can use the power of government to improve the situation of men.” I’m not even sure what you’re getting at with this statement – which either implies that all belief in government for any purpose is “progressive,” or perhaps suggests that progressivism strictly reduces to the a cult of expertise. The former is too broad to be useful, the latter obviously reductive, and directly contradicted in the discussion undertaken in the main post, following Ryan’s remarks.

    And how are we supposed to interpret a statement like “from the progressive’s loins sprung communism, socialism, fascism, modern liberalism?” Apparently, you’re here using an extremely broad definition of progressivism that, for no reason I can see, stops at Rousseau and excludes all his Enlightened brethren and sistren, and just happens to include the things you dislike intensely. Why precisely are the Founders and Framers excluded from the big fat contentious family? And if progressivism – whatever you mean by progressivism – was the mommy, who was the daddy, and why are communism and fascism more the fault of the former?

    The differences between communism, socialism, fascism, and progressivism and other political philosophies may be at least as significant as any similarities. Goldberg and those before him take liberties with the subject matter in the hope of striking a balance: Tired of being called a fascist, Goldberg produced the popular literary equivalent of “I know what you are, but what am I!” He ignores the key difference between progressivism and the schools of violent revolution: It’s neither violent nor revolutionary. At the moment that it becomes so, it ceases being progressive and turns into something else.

    I’m leaning toward a definition of progressivism as the the politics of expedient reform. All of the other additions and historical burdens with which people like Goldberg, and yourself, seek to weigh it down with are daddy’s work, or, more often, features of the age, no more uniquely or essentially “progressive” than the clothes the progressive activists wore as they went about their business.

    There is a gray area of legalized coercion that borders on violence or has the character of implicit threat, but that’s not uniquely progressive either. One thing that was uniquely progressive in the American historical sense was the embrace of the tools of direct democracy – transparency, referendum, recall, etc. – as an additional check on governmental power and excess. Though we can imagine situations in which direct democracy might amount to mob rule, that’s an abstraction: Primary elections, initiatives, recall, etc., have in the U.S. tended to function largely as intended – which isn’t to say that they solve all of our problems, but they haven’t turned us into an Athenian mobocracy either.

    Such progressive reforms answered or helped to answer a strongly felt need at the time they were put in place. Your equation of direct democracy with “centralized fascism” is so absurd it’s Orwellian, frankly. The rigged plebiscite has long been a favored tool of the dictator. It’s the progressive’s nightmare. There were no sunshine laws in Nazi Germany. Nazi officials were not subject to recall. There was no referendum on the Holocaust.

    I likewise have no idea where you get the idea that constitutional amendment is “non-progressive,” unless it’s just more Goldbergism. Again and again, you put his exaggerated and highly questionable cart before the historical horse. The progressives liked constitutional amendments and, generally speaking, proceeded by lawful means. They sought to reform and improve the law. Goldberg ignores this critical difference between them and the villains of history with whom he wants to associate them.

    BTW – Wilson thought women’s suffrage should be handled by the states and only gave in on it when it was virtually a fait accompli and he thought it might bolster the war effort. He had always opposed Prohibition, and vetoed the Volstead Act (through his wife and personal secretary – it occurred soon after his stroke – the veto was overriden, of course).

    I’ll get to Joe’s post at a later time. These are two fairly heavy comments to try to reply to all at once, and when I began this one I was already feeling pretty burnt out from a long day’s journey into a rather beautiful, already getting Summer-y So Cal evening..

  35. It’s what progressivism has evolved into, they have come to see the constitution with the charter of ‘negative liberties’ as an obstacle. Fascism was the accomodation of the left impulse to total power with capital, Mussolini, Mosley, the Esser faction in the Nazia, The former principle has metatasized in regimes like N Korea, and Mao’s China,
    which believes in the malleability of the human condition.

  36. narciso wrote:

    Fascism was the accomodation of the left impulse to total power with capital,

    The fascists claimed to reach much further back, and to a much deeper level, than the left. Mussolini was explicitly pre-Enlightenment. The Hitlerites imagined themselves as new, improved versions of the Teutonic Knights and the heroes of legend. The left did not invent the will to power.

  37. I say let Barnie Frank and Jan Shakowsky and Andy Stern keep their pretty word, which means nothing but presumptive power grabs to people in the know (so, for people like me & probably most of you, all six of you, it’s just an overused word, which they’ll get very tired of using once 35+% of voters recognize that, yup, it means presumptive power grabs, higher taxes, more unemployment for non governmental salary slaves, more quotas, and more boondoggles).

    95% of voters don’t give a rat’s ass about what terms were chic in Teddy Roosevelt’s or Woodrow Willnot’s times, they care about what’s going on NOW. We certainly don’t want to cause further confusion by trying to beg, steal or borrow the pompous, pusillanimous pretenders’ favorite platitudes or words, do we?

    And, I might add, as much as I worship our dear Tsar, long may he live, and long may his blessed reign endure, this endless discussion regarding a much abused and now very cheapened word that starts with p will do nothing to attract any brilliant new zombies to our zombie colony, and it even might bore the rest of us to death.

    However, I hear that zombies do not die.

    Isn’t that right, my frems?

  38. CK – you are going to have to read some more then – I can’t state it any more plainly than I have. It is what they said, and what their actions were. Until you update your reference, you are going to keep on believing that progressives means progress as a general good and advancement. You are providing for them a definition they themselves did not believe. That they felt their actions would result in advancement I don’t doubt. But progressives in a political sense means the method by which that improvement would come, through the utilization of direct state power.

    Your definition of progressivism isn’t what it means. You need to read more, including the footnotes.

  39. Andy and Barney and Barack are nothing like Paul, Sarah and Scott, the former bellieve that the government can and should control everything, reshape human nature on a fundamental nature. The
    latter in varying degrees know better, that at best it can aid private
    sector development, by not getting in its way. There’s much more evidence for the latter proposition than the former succeeding in a
    positive way

  40. @ narciso:
    You, poor thing, simply lack the vision to visualize all the wonderful progress we can do together if we try. Just imagine, mi amigo, a great causeway connecting us to Cuba, more modern than the autobahn ever was, along with a tunnel with high speed bullet trains zooming back and forth and on time between Miami and Havana.

    This investment would pay off our national debt and, after a year to iron out the kinks, start producing a return which would be spread around to all so we could all just lie back and groove and chill.

    We can do this together, mi hermano en la guerra, (in this struggle, my brother, for those of you unfamiliar with Spanglish) as long as we legalize pot and turn Cuba into an enormous pot plantation.

  41. @ JEM:
    Goldberg’s full of it, JEM. He has some interesting ideas, but his approach is badly flawed and highly parochial. If he’s your only source – he seems to be the only one you’ve named – then you’re being misled.

    @ Zoltan P. Newberry:
    It’s not about the word, Z. To the extent it is about the word, it’s because people like Beck and secondarily Goldberg have gone far, far beyond political combat with today’s progressives and have instead propagated a dishonest, self-destructive, dead-end, incipiently extremist view of the national political discussion. The radical, fantasy constitutionalism, the namecalling, the proud declarations of hatred for Ameircan political leaders, the willful and defamatory distortions of history – it’s potentially extremely destructive. Even in the best of circumstances, nothing good will come of it.

    It’s about what conservatives are really after and what this country is really about. It’s about thinking clearly and dealing with the implications of one’s words, and it’s also about why a guy like Ryan and gal like Palin are as appealing as they are – and also about why the original Sarah (pre-trashing) was attractive to a significant majority.

  42. Hot damn, leave you alone for a few hours and I come back to find Zolt fust-up on weed and the Tsar sounding like me and shooting down the Goldberg Blimp!!!

    Well done!!

  43. @ CK MacLeod:
    OK, we do need to present a positive vision of a prosperous future, free of bloated government, with modest public servants, and plenty of incentives for people to build wealth and take care of themselves.

    People need to see that things can and will be much much better which is why I like Gilder so much, because capitalism requires freedom, and when it is protected from the grubby thieves, because of our unleashed creativity and our discipline, we can solve many human problems which have resulted in so much past misery, and, instead, really build that City On The Hill.

    (How’s dat for a run on sentence Miss Carsewell?)

    Let’s stop worrying about whether we can call it progress, OK?

    Please, let’s stop obsessing about dat schmogressive woyd, OK?

    Den all dose pogwessives would be lafin’ at chus, right?

    We don’ want any of that ka ka, do we?

  44. @ Zoltan P. Newberry:
    Worry not, one way or the other, fine – but that goes also for me and my good friend Paul Ryan and my old buddy Newt if we like to tweak Harry Obamalosi and their army of facilitators as phony persimmons, and traitors to original preregrinationism.

  45. CK – who says he is flawed? I have seen many people take a shot at his scholarship, and of course it isn’t perfect. But no one has been able to successfully attack his basic premise -show me the refutation. And of course, if you follow the footnotes, you will see the sources pretty easy, some of which I have taken the time to check out. It was the first time I found anything in one place that confirmed my feelings on the topic.

    I intend to look into the recent Wilson book you had referenced, as I think that would be a good counterpoint to my arguments. But your statement regarding Goldberg I think you should revisit. Show me where he is wrong and where he has lied about what the progressives have said. You will be searching for a very long time. Can you find an error here or there, of course. But you need more than parochial, my friend. That is just name calling, and it is beneath you.

  46. People have a natural built in bs meter, and we should not worry sbout or internalize all the false insults the left flings at our champions. Most people not read their books, or even their long essays, but, when they see or even just hear Barnes, Beck, Coulter, Gilder, Goldberg, Hannity, Ingraham (I especially like seeing her), Krugman, Laffer, Limbaugh, Levin, Ferguson, Kristol, Miller, O’Reilly, Savage, et all, I think they see integrity, sincerity, understandable alarm, and credibility. Like everybody else, I like some of the above (Laura!!!) more than others, and, like the lady who kissed the cow, it is just a matter of taste.

  47. We operate in the debris field that the left has created, they have used the Commerce Clause to pry the government in every aspect
    of human endeavor, through Engel v, Vitale, and other cases, they
    deligitimized religion in the public square. The created a retinue of staff hagiographers like Schlesinger, too some degree, Stephanopolous
    and Remnick to exalt their leaders, while denouncing any who have come forth on our side. They have warped out history so much, that the likes of Hanks, seems confortable in enunciating the ridiculous premise that racism was the prime mover of the Pacific crusade.

  48. @ narciso:
    I guess it’s my fate – and fate is inexorable – to offer half-hearted defenses of the likes of Hanks, but I sincerely doubt he believes that sentiment as it was taken. Do you doubt, at all, that there was heavy racialist animus in our confrontation with the Nips? I think Hanks was just doing lame PR, while exposing his own shallow political positioning. His mistake was less to point to the propaganda and attached sentiments of that other era than to claim that anything we’ve done in the last 10 years, or for that matter the last 30, of our confrontation with Islamism even approaches the ferocity of condemnation directed at the Japanese.

  49. @ JEM:
    Since Goldberg explicitly denies having attempted to commit scholarship, I wouldn’t hold him to scholarly standards anyway, though his evasion of “serious” responsibility raises questions about what, precisely, he sees himself as doing and what we can assume about it. If he were a scholar, and he was my student, I’d fault him for manipulating and selectively quoting primary and secondary source materials for the sake of making a polemical point rather than for the sake of a fair and full accounting. It relates to an even more serious flaw in his approach, the essentially ahistorical definition of fascism that he uses, that I’ve been planning to post on.

  50. He was gasping at straws, granted, but in another generation it would
    not have occurred to anyone to even make that comparison. I mean there is a better argument, if one wanted to use it, for criticizing Dresden, in the theatre of operation, he covered in the other series

  51. However, you probably did read his “working definition” of fascism, then blotted it out of your little frog brain.

  52. @ CK MacLeod:

    Thanks for the confirmation on the book. I will look forward to your posting on fascism.

    I don’t declare Goldberg an academic or a scholar, but in reality political philosophy is a very interesting business. I found the quotes he attributed to people and they actions they took a very condemning picture. I also realize his rationale for starting the book was to analyze and refute the left’s obsession with calling their political opponents on the right fascists or nazis. I am not sure he ended up wher ehe expected or did not. When I read the book I was surprised, the depth and detail was much more than I expected, and the documentation was extensive. Some of the footnotes I followed through didn’t suggest a cherry picking exercise. Furthermore, the unbiasedness – if that is a word – of scholarly works in general is I think suspect. Believing that only scholarly works completed solely on the premise of being a scholarly work are the only sources of truth don’t fly with me anymore – Climategate saw to that. There is much truth in Goldberg’s work, I need to discover its weaknesses.

    So I began trying to read any articles I could find on things wrong with the book, but most just took potshots at the author – just as you are doing. To date, actual argument on the facts of the book are slim, which suggest he hit the sweet spot. The most common factual complaint is that he took quotes out of context. I haven’t seen any of those complaints hold water – plus he used just way too much material from too many sources to suggest cherry picking. I don’t deny it could happen, but it would be pretty hard. I need some examples.

    I have been working through a great deal of revolutionary period political books, constitutional stuff and have been trying to work in some books Goldberg’s book might move me towards. Bismark and the German school is of interest as is Wilson – hence my question – and after Wilson, some of the Princeton thinkers that seem to have formed his thought. My problem, much of what has been written comes from the assumption that fascism was of the right – and I do not accept that any longer. But that is what discovery is all about.

    This much I do know -we can no longer afford any progress or progressivism. Yesterday someone mentioned about isn’t it good that now kids can be covered (health care) until age 26. Doesn’t that help people? Isn’t that PROGRESS? Sure – and I wish everyone made $50 an hour. But that is rainbows and unicorns. We are broke and if not for PIIGS and specifically Greece, we would be in greater danger right now. WE cannot tax our way out of this.

  53. Gee, CKM, do you really believe this?

    “…Goldberg ha[s] gone far, far beyond political combat with today’s progressives and ha[s] instead propagated a dishonest, self-destructive, dead-end, incipiently extremist view of the national political discussion. The radical, fantasy constitutionalism, the namecalling, the proud declarations of hatred for Ameircan political leaders, the willful and defamatory distortions of history…”

    I know you believe this about Beck, but what do you find “dishonest” or a “defamatory distortion” in Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism? In what way does he advocate “radical, fantasy constitutionalism”?

  54. @ Lotus Feet:
    The nictitating membrane is what is also called the third eyelid on a cat. Do frogs have them? I didn’t think so, but then, if I knew everything, you’d have to pay me for this comment, or, at the very least, show some respect.

  55. @ J.E. Dyer:
    Wouldna sed it, didna believe it.

    In regard to Goldberg and Beck, Beck is obviously more melodramatic and his radicalism is much more overt. In Goldberg, the utopianism is more implicit and possibly inadvertent, yet unavoidable, as when he equates “Third Way”-ism with fascism, and states that the only other alternatives are communism and laissez-faire capitalism. I would argue that there are many gradations and multiple dimensions of alternatives, and also that the history of self-consciously “Third Way” movements is much, much richer than Goldberg seems aware, or is willing to acknowledge. Goldberg himself seems to me to be a much more moderate personality and pundit than LF is a book.

  56. Much of the controversy over Progressivism in this and related threads derives from an inability to agree on the meaning of the term. A part-time logician such as myself recognizes the futility of any discussion in which the meaning of the core subject is disputed so emphatically.

    For example, what does Jonah Goldberg mean by “fascism”? Is it even conceivable that Liberalism, or Progressivism, could be essentially fascist projects? Goldberg seems to believe it’s more than conceivable. Marrying the words liberal and fascism in his title, whether that was his idea or not (I understand there is some argument over it), is undeniably the highest-octane salt someone could choose to rub into this particular wound. It certainly rubs liberals raw. Most refuse to read the thing for that reason alone, and they’re not shy about admitting it either, as I read.

    Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and – John Dewey? It does seem preposterous. Fascismo, Meine Ehre Ist Treue, “All Power to the Soviets!” and – direct election of senators? I don’t know. Say, instead of the 16th Amendment, what if you inserted the 18th? That was a progressive idea. A trifle interfering, too, couldn’t we agree? Hitler was a tee-totaler, right? And Lenin was very abstemious. Then again Stalin and most of the Politburo were drunks. Well what about Taylorism with its stopwatches, meticulous quotas, and painstakingly thought-out schedules of rational reinforcement? (Croley and Veblen couldn’t get enough of that stuff, as I recall.) Typically American or proto-Stakhanovite? Maybe Goldberg is onto something there. Or perhaps it’s all as far-fetched as it seems.

    I know one thing. If there in fact is a commonality among these improbable menages, it can’t have much to do with any of their objective trappings. It must lie in the interior life of the typical fascist and the garden-variety progressive. London and Rome would seem to have little in common, but Shaw and Wells admired Mussolini, and both were as progressive as the dickens. Lincoln Steffans loved machines. Nothing pleased him more than a smoothly running combine. And he was raised in Sacramento. He came from real money and was a bit of a rebel. Hmm. Rebel.

    Rebelliousness, that’s psychological, interior, etc. Might that have something to do with it? Not, perhaps, in the way you might expect. We should look farther afield. Zombie Contentions is a sort of cadet branch of Commentary Magazine. If there were such a thing as blog coats-of-arms, I imagine ZC’s based on Commentary’s with flourishes, lances plus decusses, maybe, surtout une bande sinistre. I like it.

    Anyway, as homage to the mother mag, let me repair to Freud and his concept of the superego, basically mommy and daddy and rules and regulations. Maybe Benito and Adolph and John and Thorstein and H.G. had some unextirpated cathexes toward their elders. Hitler and Mussolini worked on yes-sir, no-sir Daddy states to beat the band, you could say. Progressives, on the other hand, want us lapping at Big Mama’s ever-flowing teats, arguably because they never achieved emancipation from their oedipal urges. Their ego formation was in a permanent state of arrest. QED.

    I know. It’s absurd.

  57. Quite right, Joe. Goldberg can argue that liberalism is akin to fascism because he doesn’t define fascism.
    red and yellow are pretty much the same as well.

  58. @ fuster:
    Actually, Goldberg DOES define fascism, he just defines it prejudicially, in a manner favorable to his thesis – as a species of liberalism that has little to do with the the fascism that Joe just evoked rather poetically above.

    I am in the process of preparing a piece that dwells inordinately on this question of definition. I say inordinately because it’s around twice as long as it should be. I hope that it will be a little less inordinate by the time I post it. My ability to work on it effectively is also somewhat impaired by an injury to my hand.

  59. @ eddy:
    Been to Ryan’s site several times – have discussed and repeatedly linked it. Not sure why you’d expect iron consistency on Beck’s part, or why you’d expect Paul Ryan, by all accounts a likeable and by skeptical accounts a malleable good fellow, to try anything else other than to charm and seduce Beck, and through him his fans. I’m not the one who ever thought Ryan’s “real progressivism” required we drum him or anyone else who thinks like him out of the ranks of good conservatives.

    Anyway, I’ll withhold further comment until I’ve had a chance to observe whatever exchanges. Thanks for the viewing tip.

  60. This thread has grown whiskers, and more likely than not no one’s still interested, but it occurred to me that Goldberg’s subject is neither Fascism nor Liberalism but liberal Fascism. How much do they have in common – and how significant is what they share? Or is it, prima facia, a vain inquiry? Supposing the book had been titled, less euphoniously, Fascistic Liberalism, would that clarify JG’s intention, if not his argument. Or would that be to assert a distinction without a difference?

    Anyone for tennis?

  61. @ Joe NS:
    You sure you wouldn’t rather bring this up on the Liberal Fascism thread? For the reasons I went into in that post, Fascistic Liberalism would still be as polemical rather than illuminating, in my view, because what makes fascism fascistic rather than merely collectivist, statist, corporatist, etc. – and what makes it fascism in our collective memory and the history of our enemies in war – is precisely what Goldberg has to suppress to make his case.

    Austria’s government, prior to the Anschluss, had been known as the Corporate State. It was weak in a number of ways, and embodied some liberal values in other ways. The difference between the Corporate State and the German Reich – e.g., Jews running businesses and going on about their lives vs. people of Jewish heritage robbed, attacked, and driven out of the country or, eventually, murdered – may be the real difference, the difference that matters, between fascism and mere corporatism, and, by extension, between fascism and other political ideologies.

  62. Go over to salon or Huffpuff and politely post something like taxes are too high or the gov doesn’t have the answers to prosperity, the people do, and see what you get in response, and, then, you tell me that those lovely lively librals aren’t a step or two away from building gulags, my frems.

  63. @ Zoltan Newberry:
    I’ll say!! Anybody who would argue over the internet about things such as those is potentially tyrannical.
    Those are the sort of people that should be put into secret prisons and constantly hydrated.
    Thiessen says they’ll thank you for it.

  64. @ Zoltan Newberry:
    Z, not that the average thread-commenter at Hufflepuff or Stalin doesn’t mean anything, but they don’t stand for a lot. They’re just one piece of the mosaic.

  65. After reading your impassioned defense of a progressive conservatism, all I can say is I wish I agreed. In my heart, I love the idea of referendums deciding national issues and acquiescence to the will of the people ruling the land (with, of course, difficult-to-change constitutional protections for minorities). It seems to combine the best aspects of both the conservative and radical traditions (without having much to offer modern-day liberals, methinks; maybe in their campaigning strategies – Obama’s ’08 message, while short on substance, seemed to point to what you are describing here – but not in their governing style; then again, same is true of more mainstream conservatives like Bush, maybe it’s a governing thing rather than a lib/con divide. But I digress.).

    Generally, I would position myself to your left – I’m a generally centrist independent who goes issue-by-issue but can find little common ground with the pronounced trends of the Republican Party, and on the more prominent issues of the day (health care and the environment) I trend leftward (on Afghanistan, I’m anti-cut&run, but Obama has so far held his ground on that while the right has, ironically, rather cut & run). However, I can’t help but feel that in arguing against Obamacare here, you are arguing from my left. In the end, I just don’t have as much faith in the rational decision-making abilities of the majority as you do.

    At the same time, of course, I don’t have too much faith in governing elites either – which is why, with the caveat that some more referendums would not be such a bad thing – I have to generally stick up for the system as it exists now, loosely defined. Checks and balances, representative democracy in which the people get to express their will but through filters and by leaping over hurdles, seems to me to best mitigate against the excesses of both elitist governmental malfeasance and majoritarian ignorance or whimsy. Unfortunately, this process is enormously frustrating, sometimes calamitous, and almost always disspiriting, but “except for all the others tried from time to time,” etc etc.

    I dunno, part of me hopes you and other mob-optimists will enlighten me and change my mind – I’d love to believe this sort of governance is not only achievable but workable. Yet I can’t help see it as rather utopian from where I stand now (looking not just at the abstract “masses” but myself, whose attention towards politics waxes and wanes, one reason I’m relieved to designate political responsibility elsewhere and then check up on it from time to time).

  66. Really, Movie Mano, you really haven’t been paying attention then, to any of our arguments really. There are some Republicans like Huckabee who have tip toed away from Afghanistan, we have little use for them, they are also the like who have soft pedaled the opposition to this particularly noxious bill, and other leviathans. Obama’s not about referendum, but ‘the persuasion of power’, every step of the way. From his first state senate seat to today, disqualifying candidates from Altgeld gardens to the US Senate, using astroturf to slime legitimate candidates, basically all the things, Nixon was accused of being. But Chotiner, Atwater, and
    Rove, are pikers compared to Axelrod.

  67. @ MovieMan0283:
    I wasn’t, quite, advocating rule by national referendum, much less “electrified democracy.” I don’t know of anyone pushing for anything like the former, and only a few Fuller fans and direct democracy wingnuts probably even are aware of the latter.

    On the other hand, the opinion that our representatives are vastly out of touch as well as corrupt is widespread, not restricted to the conservative right. Direct democracy was one weapon against such ills. Maybe referenda could be introduced for very specific purposes: Balanced budget except when deficit spending validated within 90 days by a popular super-majority, that kind of thing.

    But my main point was to highlight the vast distance from real Progressive Era progressives and authentically progressive thinking to Obama-Pelosi-Reid progressives. Even in the “glory days,” the flesh sometime proved weak, as when progressives in one state, I think it was Iowa, won direct election of senators (prior to the 17th Amendment), but, when they took control of the state legislature, and thought their candidate might lose a popular election, turned around and nullified the act.

    This post also led to a “moment” in this re-examination of progressivism campaign, incidentally. Pope Beck (mis-)read some excerpts of the HotAir version of the post on air, and gave indications that he was ready to excommunicate Paul Ryan, who quickly arranged a call-in in which he in effect repudiated the statements I quoted, and then accused “that blogger” of getting him “all wrong.” My big, big fans on the hard right saw it as my public humiliation. I saw the whole thing as both amusing and quite revelatory, in many ways.

  68. Narciso, I did not know Huckabee had backed off of Afghanistan, actually. I was thinking more various columnists, like George Will & Diana West, and especially the way the still pro- voices have largely fallen silent. Suddenly the isolationists (on the left as well btw – now that they no longer need to use Afghanistan as the “good war” to prove their mettle) have found their voice again.

    I definitely see Obama as a politician’s politician, though I don’t really mind the fact – politicos are what they are (not sure why Axelrod outflanks the others you mention though). My mention of his ’08 campaign was merely to point out that his rhetoric tapped in to a desire on the part of the electorate, one which corresponds to CK’s affection for at least some semblance of direct democracy.

    At any rate, I am in agreement on the essential point that the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are not really the inheritors of progressivism in this sense. I don’t share your antipathy to them, but I certainly don’t see them delivering in any sense on the populist, grassroots mood they cultivated in ’08. I guess where we differ is I’m not sure how/if they could – though I’ll concede that perhaps that’s a moot point as they are very much of the managerial school of thinking (though, again, most politicians are, if not always with such a pronounced accent).

    I read elsewhere about Ryan on Beck, but didn’t realize it was directly connected to this post. Did he explain how “the blogger” managed to get him “all wrong” while quoting verbatim three entire paragraphs of a speech?! Not like you took a pull-quote there…

  69. P.S. if by “any of our arguments” you mean the site’s, that’s correct as I’m new here. My observation, perhaps stated too generally as is bound to happen when one starts characterizing “left” and “right”, was not meant necessarily to pertain to the good folks at Zombie Contentions.

  70. Well Will is kind of a skeptic on any large national project, he was backing some obscure candidate, after he gave up on Iraq, West, is a maximalist on the Islam question, quite like Col. Peters. So that covers a lot of rationale for them. A relative is in Afghanistan, so it’s not a totally academic exercise.

    As for Obama, despite his Alinskyite orientation, he is still a machine politician, backed by the subprime financiers and even a small portion
    of the oil industry, makes no sense to me, That was my reason for supporting true reformers like Guiliani and reluctantly McCain. I’m sorry if I inferred more into your comments than was warranted

  71. No, not at all. I didn’t care much for Giuliani and was disappointed in McCain second time around. The GOP lost me with the Iraq invasion (though once we were there, I wasn’t so hot on turning tail) and has not regained my trust yet – I’m not especially enamored of the Dems but they haven’t pissed me off to the same degree yet. One of the most egregious displays at the Republican convention to my eyes, was McCain’s admirably stoic and classically conservative speech met with tepid applause while the crowd went ballistic for Palin’s cozy suburban have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too brand of right-wing populism. Sorry CK, I know you’re a fan…

    A cousin & friend of mine may be headed for Afghanistan late this year or early next; he just finished a stint in Iraq (he signed up just after the surge, but by the time he got there things had settled down considerably, luckily enough). What’s your relative’s take on the situation on the ground? Though I am not in favor of withdrawal, that’s not to say our present strategy is optimal – I’m very keen to know where we go from here. It’s a muddle, but washing our hands of Afghanistan is what led to 9/11 in the first place & I hate the whole “that’s so last decade” tone of media disenchantment with the war, though I may be reading too much into it…

  72. Well if one recalls, her rhetoric was sincerely geared to the sincere admiration for Senator McCain, and his tough stances, which have not always endeared either of them to the party leadership, and the fact
    that it wasn’t an academic exercise for her either. Afghanistan is a much harder mission to accomplish, for all the known historical reasons,
    among other things, because it just doesn’t involve Afghanistan, but the other side of the Durand line.

  73. MovieMan0283 wrote:

    Sorry CK, I know you’re a fan…

    No need to apologize and not so much. I moved into effective neutrality pending further developments a while ago, but, even when I counted myself a supporter or was at least holding out more hope for her, I was able to maintain virtual friendship with full-on Palin Derangement cases like a couple people here.

    I think the dominant position on A-stan has been notch-to-the-right/supportive of Obama, with some reservations, from the foreign policy types in conservative-land. Will paleo-cons and McCarthy, West radical anti-Islamists were in the minority. I’d say some distancing has clearly been going on among the mainstreamers lately, however, based on developments and falling confidence in the O-team’s competence.

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