Reasons too obvious for reasoning

Here’s how Allahpundit sums up recent opinion polling among New York City residents on the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque” project showing among other things that  respondents claim a more positive opinion of Muslims than they do of the project:

It’s not that the City is suspicious of mosques generally… it’s that it’s suspicious of a mosque there, which has been the objection all along. And with good reason. So much for healing.

Yes, we know that “the objection” was prompted by the proposed siting “there,” but a significant and loud group of hardcore opponents make it clear in post after post, comment after comment, protest after op-ed after TV interview, that “suspicious of a mosque there” is inextricably linked to “suspicious of mosques generally”- and, furthermore, that “suspicious” is self-serving blogger’s eyewash for what those opponents believe and proclaim.

Unless there were some strange reason to expect an Islamic cultural center to oppose Islam, why wouldn’t you expect self-identifying Islamophobes among respondents to be smaller in number than (a subset of) the group of all those who oppose the project?  Such a result says nothing about “the objection.”  It merely tells us, predictably, how some of those who object, including some bloggers if less so their friends, allies, and community, prefer to see themselves.

The “good reason” link goes to Allahpundit’s own post about Cordoba Initiative founder’s Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s tenuous connections to the Gaza Flotilla (reply here).  Why such connections would provide “good reason” for any particular attitude toward building an Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero is something that Allahpundit doesn’t bother to explain:  We’re left to assume that people who contribute to groups that contribute to groups that sponsor actions of which someone strongly disapproves should be barred from the national community… which last, by my calculations, would be reduced to those people who were never involved in politics.  Ever.

Also absent is any connection between the preceding discussion and Allahpundit’s closing dismissal of “healing.”  The word-link goes to an op-ed by Bret Stephens from the end of May proposing questions to Rauf.  Are we simply to presume that there are no answers?  Possibly in Creatorpundit’s grim universe, where freedom of worship and expression apparently hangs on opinion polls, where the existence of a wound is obviously an argument against healing efforts, and where a therapy that does not heal before it has been applied is deemed ineffective.

Maybe a blogger who didn’t just make his name as a blaspheming atheist, but literally made his name for the specific purpose of comical anti-Islamic blasphemy, is in a poor position to judge the significance of Islamophobia – ahem, of “being suspicious of mosques generally” – in the apparent majority opposition of New York City (but not Manhattan borough) residents to the Cordoba House project.  Maybe if Allahpundit carefully reviewed the comments under his own post, under all of his posts on this and any related subject, he’d reflect on what the politics of the obvious gets you:  comment threads that read more like selected excerpts from far right chain e-mails than like discussions, in which the closest thing to a dissenting view has to come from someone who also seems to believe that one third of New Yorkers are “hardcore leftists who celebrated the [9/11] attacks.”

Maybe the commenter is joking about that, but, if it’s not obvious, then isn’t that obviously bad enough?  And maybe Allahpundit is happy with the reaction he gets at his site.  I don’t find it obvious that he isn’t.

74 comments on “Reasons too obvious for reasoning

Commenting at CK MacLeod's

We are determined to encourage thoughtful discussion, so please be respectful to others. We also provide a set of Commenting Options - comment/commenter highlighting and ignoring, and commenter archives that you can access by clicking the commenter options button (). Go to our Commenting Guidelines page for more details, including how to report offensive and spam commenting.

  1. Unless we amend the Constitution,I cannot envision a prohibition on building a Mosque anywhere that any other religious organization would be allowed to build anything (based on local Zoning/Building codes) that would not be judged unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

  2. We don’t amend the Constitution anymore Rex, the last was that pay raise amendment, and we saw how well that has been ignored. Courts
    recently endorse a legal framework that would have embarassed King John, (Kelo) and repudiates centuries of precedent on military tribunal
    and detention, (Hamdi-Boumedienne) we’ve had some push back at the appellate level, Now past is prologue, one sees how Quaradawi is pulling the same trick in one of the cities where the planes departed
    from, Boston, as well as the one in London, scheduled to coincide with the 2012 Olympics

  3. A mosque at Ground Zero is a way of saying that the United States is a free country. Could there be a church in Mecca? Could a Jew (other than Henry Kissinger or a member of the US Armed Forces) be permitted to enter Saudi Arabia?

  4. @ Rex Caruthers:
    Don’t think we’ll amend it to allow proscription of Islamic practices and edifices.

    @ narciso:
    Considering that Qaradawi is 84, I’m impressed that he’s extended his tentacles all the way to Manhattan, where he’s barred from entering. Any evidence he’s been “hanging around” with Rauf (who through his family has a to say the least rather fraught relationship with the Brotherhood)?

    From what I know about Qaradawi, he defines a critical limiting case. In other words, it’s worth comprehending him, because transcending (rather than merely negating) his positions would define post-Islamism. Probably a work of generations – the ability to assess his most controversial views without reference to political nightmares of the past and present – where we can say, “So what if he thinks suicide bombing in Israel is justified? So what if he thinks the Jews have a relatively weak historical claim to the land of Israel? Neither impacts the justice of our case. We can stipulate to both those views – and others – and the steps forward will be the same.”

  5. @ George Jochnowitz:
    I agree entirely. The opponents believe they make a strong point when they say, “OK, you can have your GZ mosque when we can have a church in Mecca.” They don’t seem to recognize what that says about them. They’ll often then change the subject to oppression of Christians in Islamic lands – which many seem to find “obviously” directly relevant, yet not in the way that might seem “obvious” to you or me.

  6. Maulvana Younis Khalis is long dead, but he was the father of the Taliban, and his star pupil, Mullah Omar has some influence. Ditto with the Haqquani clan, which you may be some what are. the Egyptian born Khadr have along tradition of Salafism. although one AbdulRahman
    seems to bave become the ‘black sheep’ of the family like Mosab to the Yousef clan

  7. @ CK MacLeod: wallah, you can’t build a church in mecca because it is against the law…..islamic law.
    ;)

    and i TOLE you, don’t take it personal with AllahP.
    Its just a paycheck.

  8. @ strangelet:
    Who’s taking it personally? Never met AllahP, don’t expect to meet him. The texts he publishes have a content and provoke certain responses. Your suggestion that he’s completely mercenary about it, some kind of paid propagandist, may be more offensive to him (or possibly should be), than anything I’ve written.

  9. @ George Jochnowitz:

    Uh, George, the United States is no particular need to demonstrate to anybody that it’s “a free country.”

    It’s a political question, and the only freedom critically at issue here is the freedom to praise or criticize or merely accept the travesty.

  10. Joe NS wrote:

    @ George Jochnowitz:
    Uh, George, the United States is no particular need to demonstrate to anybody that it’s “a free country.”
    It’s a political question, and the only freedom critically at issue here is the freedom to praise or criticize or merely accept the travesty.

    The United States is always in “particular need” to realize its promise of freedom, and freedom of conscience is the first freedom. The travesty is that so many who in other contexts like to style themselves the fiercest defenders of liberty, and who are always ready to lecture their fellow citizens on the sacrifices that freedom requires and the dangers to freedom in one or another piece of legislation or executive decision, are ready to join the mob or look the other way.

  11. As the US has expended much in exporting our revolution and touting the universality of our principles, demonstrating that we live in honor of them is requisite.

  12. The Levick Group’s public relations campaign, took things to a ridiculous
    degree, following the proscription of the Birmingham AQ manual, to the letter, no lie too ridiculous was told to impugn American military and intelligence personnel, no evidence too obvious (like say carrying SAM
    in your trunk) wasn’t dismissed, so consequently when these folks return to the nest from which Jihad sprung, of course they rocketed
    to the top

  13. @ CK MacLeod:

    The travesty is that so many who in other contexts like to style themselves the fiercest defenders of liberty, and who are always ready to lecture their fellow citizens on the sacrifices that freedom requires and the dangers to freedom in one or another piece of legislation or executive decision, are ready to join the mob or look the other way.

    That’s overwrought and overripe. In your original post you question those objecting to a placement of a mosque tolerably close to the former WTC on the grounds that being “suspicious” of a mosque there is really suspicion of a mosque anywhere. I don’t know that that’s true, but I’ll stipulate to it arguendo.

    What is so hair-raingly un-American about being suspicious of mosques? The original attack on the WTC in 1993 was conceived, planned, and run out of a mosque in Jersey City. I have read that there is reliable evidence that Ayman Al-Zawahiri came to America around the same time or slightly earlier on a fundraising tour and was received with hospitality at a dozen or so mosques across the country (narc probably knows more about the basis of this claim). Zawahiri had participated in the assassination of Sadat. His Egyptian Brotherhood was involved in the famous “Black-Hawk Down” incident in Somalia. In short, his convictions, aims, and intentions could have been no secret to any imam on earth. In the UK a couple of years ago a journalist got into a mosque with a hidden camera and taped a lot of blood-curdling stuff. When it was broadcast on BBC 4, the predictable storm of outrage and indignation ensued. Apologies were duly extended. But six months or so later, another journalist went back to the same mosque and taped the exact same crap all over again! The FBI is suspicious of mosques, for crying out loud. But American citizens are expected to be immune to this really understandable suspicion on pain of being declared un-American? And no, lest we go down the same dead end again, it doesn’t much matter if such behavior occurs in only 1% of American mosques, because that 1% would represent about a 1oo,ooo-fold increase on the number of churches and synagogues in which murderous plots have been hatched. No one is talking about shuttering mosques. People are only suspicious of them. They not only have a right to be, based in fact, but they have my sympathies as well.

    In the 1930s what was le mot de jour a gauche? Oh yes, “Communism is twentieth-century Americanism.” The Communists were on the correct side of a lot of progressive causes, influential in civil rights and union building. Just working-joes pursuing the American dream. Yet Meany and Reuther and Lewis were very suspicious of them, because they sensed that there was a hidden agenda in the Communist Party USA, and they at last expelled them from the unions. Gee, how un-American. How heedless of—how does that go again?—oh yes, “of the sacrifices that freedom requires.”

    Turns out that 50 or 60 years later, after the wails of lamentations over the dirt done to Alger Hiss and the Mississippi of tears shed over the Rosenbergs, that all the while the CPUSA was funded and directed by the CPUSSR. Turns out that Browder and Foster and their ilk could not have an opinion on the weather unless it went across some KGB officer’s desk for vetting first.

    Everyone surely remembers old “Tail-Gunner Joe” McCarthy. He stood on the Capitol steps and announced that he had in his pocket a list of the names of 60 or was it 70 (narc will know) conscious agents of the “communist conspiracy” employed by the federal government. And surely everyone remembers the ridicule McCarthy received, the utter disbelief that he had in his pocket anything more than a shopping list, which may have been true since he only ever named about six people, all of whom, as it happened, turned out to be actual security risks if not outright spies. But McCarthy was still a lying right-wing fool. And I’ll tell you why. McCarthy flat out lied about the threat, as we have learned over the course of 60 years toiling away at the Venona Papers, which have so far ferreted out the existence of, not 60 conscious agents, but 360! Of whom only about 140 (narc?) have been identified. Joe McCarthy, un-American liar.

  14. What is so hair-raingly un-American about being suspicious of mosques?

    It’s Allahpundit who seems to presume that being “generally suspicious of mosques” would be wrong, as opposed to being suspicious of a mosque “there.”

    Clearly, he is equating general suspicion of mosques with aversion to Islam, i.e., Islamophobia. Before semantic drift and the politics of the obvious set in – for this brief moment – it’s clear that all good, right-thinking people who oppose the GZ mosque would never think of casting suspicion on mosques (i.e., Muslims) in general.

    We should also be clear that the word “suspicion” functions here in the manner of a political euphemism – more eyewash: Allahpundit and commenters are not advocating “suspicion” of the project. Neither are you. You’ve already judged the issue well beyond mere suspicion, and have reached the determination that it represents a “travesty.” Meanwhile, like almost all opponents of the “travesty,” you immediately go scurrying down exactly the pathways you claim you have no intention of setting foot on, finding yet another way to ascribe responsibility for terrorism to the entirety of Islam, and therefore to whatever particular Islamic expression you feel ready to declare obviously a travesty. It’s a sloppy and inattentive use of language, aligns you with bigots and cranks of the worst kind, in pursuit of a destructive, culturally myopic project, and is altogether beneath you.

    I have by now written about half a book on prejudice of this type, and I’m still not used to the idea that what’s un-American about it needs to be explained to people who supposedly revere the “inalienable rights” we celebrate today. People have to be free to be Muslims, Presbyterians, Satanists, Communists, Syncreticist Agnostics, or even possibly intermittently lapsed Catholics – or the whole damn thing’s a hopeless sham and sooner or later a tyranny.

  15. I must have missed when you ascribed terrorism to all of Islam, but we did note the inherent militarism of Mohammed and at least some of his successor caliphs, which seem based in the Hadiths and the Koran

  16. @ narciso:You find some of the sanest sites with which to link…
    From your site. Which of the three lists of names would you like to be on?

    Exposed Communists
    Mary Jane Keeney
    Lauchlin Currie
    Virginius Coe
    William Ullman
    Nathan Silvermaster
    Harold Glasser
    Allan Rosenberg
    Cedric Belfrage
    David Bohm
    Charlie Chaplin
    Aaron Copland
    Dashiell Hammett
    Lillian Hellman
    Tsien Hsue-shen
    Arthur Miller
    Paul Robeson
    Waldo Salt
    Paul Sweezy
    John Garfield
    John Hubley
    Edward Murrow
    DOZENS MORE…

    Unbiased Links
    ANN COULTER
    M. STANTON EVANS
    DON CAPRON
    CLIFF KINCAID
    JAMES J. DRUMMEY

    FAILED Detractors
    George Clooney
    Grant Heslov
    Edward Murrow
    CBS News
    NY Times
    LA Times
    Harry Truman
    Jesse Friedman

  17. Agreed ‘smallest violin in the world’ for Soviet spies, I’ll give a pass for
    Chaplin and Copland, ‘Requiem for the Common Man” and all that, I actually paid for the Peacemaker, so doubt my judgement will ya. Hellman what did that ‘dedicated rightist’ Mary McCarthy say, “she lies about every word, including the & and”

  18. McCarthy is indeed quite relevant: We should all be thankful that the country finally determined that the cost of indulging people like McCarthy, both in the world of espionage and more broadly, would be much greater than not doing so. Much better to have a hundred spies go on spying that to have a country fully in the grip of cranks, lunatics, and fear-mongering opportunists.

    The statement from that site regarding McCarthy’s attack on Gen. Marshall reminds me of a lot of contemporary rightwing lunacy – and incidentally of the kind of reasoning typical of Stalinist show trials and Maoist justice, too – quoting from the interview:

    One interesting thing about the speech is that McCarthy drew almost entirely from sources friendly to Marshall in discussing nearly a score of Marshall’s actions and policies that had helped the communists in the USSR, Europe, China, and Korea. “I do not propose to go into his motives,” said McCarthy. “Unless one has all the tangled and often complicated circumstances contributing to a man’s decisions, an inquiry into his motives is often fruitless. I do not pretend to understand General Marshall’s nature and character, and I shall leave that subject to subtler analysts of human personality.”

    One may agree or disagree with McCarthy’s statement that America’s steady retreat from victory “must be the product of a great conspiracy, a conspiracy on a scale so immense as to dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men.”

    The interviewee goes on to suggest that history was bearing McCarthy’s view out.

    The incorrigibility of many on the right on this issue, especially as seen in the efforts to rehabilitate McCarthy by the likes of Ann Coulter and now taken up by our friends here, would be laughable if it wasn’t so dismaying. They don’t seem to have figured out how much harm McCarthy did in the immediate term to the cause of anti-Communism, even setting aside the irreparable harm done to individuals caught up in the entire travesty.

  19. @ narciso: that strange felling might just be the spirit of Ole Joe tickling your tail feather.

    Military service
    In 1942, shortly after the U.S. entered World War II, McCarthy was commissioned into the United States Marine Corps, despite the fact that his judicial office exempted him from compulsory service. His education qualified him for an automatic commission as an officer, and he became a second lieutenant after completing basic training. He served as an intelligence briefing officer for a dive bomber squadron in the Solomon Islands and Bougainville. McCarthy reportedly chose the Marines with the hope that being a veteran of this branch of the military would serve him best in his future political career.[13] He would leave the Marines with the rank of captain. It is well documented that McCarthy lied about his war record. Despite his automatic commission, he claimed to have enlisted as a “buck private.” He flew twelve combat missions as a gunner-observer, earning the nickname of “Tail-Gunner Joe” in the course of one of these missions.[14] He later claimed 32 missions in order to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross, which he received in 1952. McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation which he claimed had been signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, then Chief of Naval Operations. However, it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer. A “war wound” that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or antiaircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during an initiation ceremony for sailors who cross the equator for the first time.[13][15]

  20. All that follows is from comments of “patrick” at: Since “patrick” provides all necessary links supporting his argument, I don’t think his identity is important. This is an attempt to reply to soap-box platitudinizing on the subject of Joe McCarthy with facts.

    This kind of broadbrush outburst shows historical ignorance. It ties McCarthy to activities he had nothing to do with, and it relies on a discredited version of history that paints McCarthy as one who hunted for Communists and spies that didn’t exist. That view has been dramatically disproven by the release of KGB files and the opening of spy documents (such as the Venona transcripts) that shows that American Communists actively assisted Soviet intelligence efforts in the United States and elsewhere. Senator Joe McCarthy confronted government officials engaging in a concealment of communist involvement, and uncovered an excessively lax security posture with regards to Communists in sensitive U.S. Government posts. We now know that Alger Hiss, a high level State Department official in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations, was indeed a Communist and a Soviet spy, and that the Venona files reveal several hundred Soviet agents in the US Govt, so the fears of anti-Communists like McCarthy were well-founded.

    Arthur Herman, in his is new book, “Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America’s Most Hated Senator,”, goes some way in restoring balance to our views on McCarthy from the familar broad-brush phony treatment of him as a bogeyman. He says that the accuracy of McCarthy’s charges “was no longer a matter of debate,” that they are “now accepted as fact.” And The New York Post’s Eric Fettmann has noted: “growing historical evidence underscores that, whatever his rhetorical and investigative excesses — and they were substantial — McCarthy was a lot closer to the truth about Communism than were his foes.”(1)

    (1) (source: http://www.jewishpress.com/news_article.asp?article=2386)

    Here is a more detailed examination of these points:

    1. Were Communists in Government a real security threat? Was Soviet spying and influence a danger? Yes and Yes!
    The Venona transcripts prove that many (perhaps in the hundreds) of Communists in the US Government were spies for Stalin’s USSR. Alger Hiss, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs, which in the 1950s the Left claimed were being falsely accused, were indeed spies for the USSR and gave the atomic bomb and other deadly secrets to the USSR. Alger Hiss was the most senior traitor in the US Government since Benedict Arnold, yet the left defended him and defamed his accusers, for 50 years. The Venona transcripts identified over 300 spies for the USSR that infiltrated the US Government, over 100 of them named. In many cases, the Soviet spies were commited Communists.

    Some examples: ” The 1940s Democrat Congressman Sam Dickstein (D-NY) it has been discovered was a Soviet agent (codename was crook). … Harold Glasser, a US Treasury Department official (code-named Ruble) who passed scores of key State Department and Treasury policy documents to Soviet intelligence.”
    http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/books/weinstein_vassiliev.htm
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dyk.html
    http://intellit.muskingum.edu/spycases_folder/venonaa-c.html
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dece_hiss.html
    “The Venona Secrets: Exposing Soviet Espionage and America’s Traitors,” (Regnery, 608 pp, $29.95).

    2. But did McCarthy help to uncover real security risks to the US? The claims that the targets of McCarthy were innocents or the wrong ones is false.

    “Any list of identified communists uncovered by McCarthy would have to include Lauchlin Currie, Gustavo Duran, Theodore Geiger, Mary Jane Keeney, Edward Posniak, Haldore Hanson, John Carter Vincent, Owen Lattimore, Edward Rothschild, Irving Peress, and Annie Lee Moss.
    … McCarthy also exposed scores of others who were causing harm to national security from their posts in the State Department, the Pentagon. The McCarthy probe resulted in the removal or further investigation by the FBI of 77 employees and a complete revamping of the security system at the GPO. Of the 110 names that McCarthy gave the Tydings Committee to be investigated, 62 of them were employed by the State Department at the time of the hearings. The committee cleared everyone on McCarthy’s list, but within a year the State Department started proceedings against 49 of the 62. By the end of 1954, 81 of those on McCarthy’s list had left the government either by dismissal or resignation.”
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1996/vo12no18/vo12no18_mccarthy.htm

    Take the case of Owen Lattimore: “Lattimore had been Roosevelt’s key advisor on China policy. Yet Evans showed evidence from 5,000 pages of FBI files on him — files released only a few years ago to the public, although the White House had access to them. However, evidence before the committee showed that Lattimore had supported Soviet policy at every turn, even declaring that the Stalin purge trials in Russia, “sound like democracy to me.” With then-Vice President Henry Wallace in Russia, Lattimore compared concentration camps to the Tennessee Valley Authority, and later urged Washington to abandon China to communism and to withdraw from Japan and Korea.”
    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jmc.htm

    ….

    “It was also during the mid-to-late 1940s that communist sympathizers in the State Department played a key role in the subjugation of mainland China by the Reds. “It is my judgment, and I was in the State Department at the time,” said former Ambassador William D. Pawley, “that this whole fiasco, the loss of China and the subsequent difficulties with which the United States has been faced, was the result of mistaken policy of Dean Acheson, Phil Jessup, [Owen] Lattimore, John Carter Vincent, John Service, John Davies, [O.E.] Clubb, and others.” Asked if he thought the mistaken policy was the result of “sincere mistakes of judgment,” Pawley replied: “No, I don’t.”
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1996/vo12no18/vo12no18_mccarthy.htm

    3. The US State Department had been compromised by Communist infiltration in the 1940s, and McCarthy brought that serious problem to light:

    “Communist infiltration of the State Department began in the 1930s. On September 2, 1939, former communist Whittaker Chambers provided Assistant Secretary of State Adolph Berle with the names and communist connections of two dozen spies in the government, including Alger Hiss. Berle took the information to President Roosevelt, but FDR laughed it off. Hiss moved rapidly up the State Department ladder and served as an adviser to Roosevelt at the disastrous 1945 Yalta Conference that paved the way for the Soviet conquest of Central and Eastern Europe. Hiss also functioned as secretary-general of the founding meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco, helped to draft the UN Charter, and later filled dozens of positions at the UN with American communists before he was publicly exposed as a Soviet spy by Whittaker Chambers in 1948.

    The security problem at the State Department had worsened considerably in 1945 when a merger brought into State thousands of employees from such war agencies as the Office of Strategic Services, the Office of War Information, and the Foreign Economic Administration – all of which were riddled with members of the communist underground. J. Anthony Panuch, the State Department official charged with supervising the 1945 merger, told a Senate committee in 1953 that “the biggest single thing that contributed to the infiltration of the State Department was the merger of 1945. The effects of that are still being felt.” In 1947, Secretary of State George Marshall and Under Secretary of State Dean Acheson engineered the firing of Panuch and the removal of every key member of his security staff.

    In June 1947, a Senate Appropriations subcommittee addressed a secret memorandum to Marshall, calling to his attentiom a condition that developed and still flourishes in the State Department under the administration of Dean Acheson. It is evident that there is a deliberate, calculated program being carried out not only to protect communist personnel in high places but to reduce security and intelligence protection to a nullity. On file in the department is a copy of a preliminary report of the FBI on Soviet espionage activities in the United States which involves a large number of State Department employees, some in high official positions.

    The memorandum listed the names of nine of these State Department officials and said that they were “only a few of the hundreds now employed in varying capacities who are protected and allowed to remain despite the fact that their presence is an obvious hazard to national security.” On June 24, 1947, Assistant Secretary of State John Peurifoy notified the chairman of the Senate subcommittee that ten persons had been dismissed from the department, five of whom had been listed in the memorandum. But from June 1947 until McCarthy’s Wheeling speech in February 1950, the State Department did not fire one person as a loyalty or security risk. In other branches of the government, however, more than 300 persons were discharged for loyalty reasons alone during the period from 1947 to 1951.”
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1996/vo12no18/vo12no18_mccarthy.htm

    4. What about the abuses of “McCarthyism”? Communists in Government posed real security risks, and as Sen McCarthy pointed out: “There is no reason why men who chum with communists, who refuse to turn their backs on traitors, and who are consistently found at the time and place where disaster strikes America and success comes to international communism, should be given positions of power in government.”

    Here is what some Government workers who were faced with :

    TESTIMONY OF HOWARD FAST (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, BENEDICT WOLF)

    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Fast, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?
    Mr. Fast. I must refuse to answer that question, claiming my rights and protection under the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.\9\

    Is this an unfair question to ask a US Government employee? Was it an unfair question to ask during the Korean war, when American
    soldiers were fighting and dying in a war against a Communist military from China, North Korea and the USSR? Well, some Communists seemed to think so, this is why Owen Lattimore invented the term “McCarthyism”, to discredit and mischaracterize the demand for loyalty among US Government officials as an assualt on free speech. It was not. McCarthy was not concerned we any citizen’s views, he was concerned with the views of those who could betray secrets or influence American foreign policy.

    4. Didnt McCarthy go too far in attacking the Army? No! McCarthy was investigating real security lapses at Monmouth bases, that were not properly attended to by the Army. The US Government knew Soviet spy Julius Rosenberg had recruited friends to work for the Soviets, many of whom were apparentely at the Monmouth Army base, and so were the targets of questioning and investigation. But the Army was covering up rather than cleaning up this situtation. McCarthy’s investigation into it went up against powers larger than he was in Eisenhower and the Defense Dept, and in alliance with Democrats, they used it to destroy him.

    But after McCarthy was destroyed politically, even his enemies did know that security at Monmouth had been compromised:

    “The Army Signal Corps installation at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey was one of the nation’s most vital security posts, since the three research centers housed there were engaged in developing defensive devices designed to protect America from an atomic attack. Julius Rosenberg, who was executed in 1953 for selling U.S. atomic secrets to the Soviet Union, worked as an inspector at Fort Monmouth from 1940 to 1945 and maintained his Signal Corps contacts for at least another two years after that. From 1949 to 1953, the FBI had been warning the Army about security risks at Fort Monmouth, but the Army paid little attention to the reports of subversion until the McCarthy investigation began in 1953.

    During 1953 and 1954, the McCarthy Committee, acting on reports of communist infiltration from civilian employees, Army officers, and enlisted personnel, heard 71 witnesses at executive sessions and 41 at open hearings. The Army responded by suspending or discharging 35 persons as security risks, but when these cases reached the Army Loyalty and Screening Board at the Pentagon, all but two of the suspected security risks were reinstated and given back pay. McCarthy demanded the names of the 20 civilians on the review board and, when he threatened to subpoena them, the Eisenhower Administration, at a meeting in Attorney General Herbert Brownell’s office on January 21, 1954, began plotting to stop McCarthy’s investigations once and for all.

    Virtually all of those suspended were eventually restored to duty at Fort Monmouth and anti-McCarthyites have cited this as proof that McCarthy had failed once again to substantiate his allegations. But vindication of McCarthy came later, when the Army’s top-secret operations at Fort Monmouth were quietly moved to Arizona. In his 1979 book With No Apologies, Senator Barry Goldwater explained the reason for the move:

    Carl Hayden, who in January 1955 became chairman of the powerful Appropriations Committee of the United States Senate, told me privately Monmouth had been moved because he and other members of the majority Democratic Party were convinced security at Monmouth had been penetrated. They didn’t want to admit that McCarthy was right in his accusations. Their only alternative was to move the installation from New Jersey to a new location in Arizona.””
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1996/vo12no18/vo12no18_mccarthy.htm

    It is foolish indeed to pretend that the Army is immune to having spies in its ranks, even today.
    Muslim Army Chaplain Yee, has just been charged with espionage in connection with his counseling of Gitmo Al Quaeda suspects:
    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030919-105619-9614r.htm

    5. Given the prevalence of hundreds of Commnist spies in Government, and the record of administration officials failing to maintain security, why the destructive attitude towards a man like Senator McCarthy who wanted to stop it? Joe McCarthy was hated and denounced not because he smeared innocent people, but because he identified guilty people, and because he exposed lapses in the security procedures in the US Government, embarrassing Government officials. McCarthy’s own faults and excesses gave McCarthy’s enemies in the executive branch the ammunition to bring him down.

    “Professor Arthur Herman. His new book, “Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America’s Most Hated Senator,” … shows the vindication of most of McCarthy’s charges. Herman, who is also coordinator of the Smithsonian’s Western Heritage Program, said that the accuracy of McCarthy’s charges “was no longer a matter of debate,” that they are “now accepted as fact.” However, the term “McCarthyism” still remains in the language.”
    Asked whether McCarthy had understood all the forces arrayed against him, Herman said no, that McCarthy hadn’t realized he’d be fighting against much of the Washington establishment. President Truman was fearful that exposures would reflect on key Democrat officials, he said, and big media and the academic world were very leftist, a heritage of the Depression and World War II. High government officials also feared investigations of their past appointments and associations with people who turned out to be communists or sympathizers.”
    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jmc.htm

    See also Arthur Herman’s book and the various reviews:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684836254/104-8630515-5712732?v=glance

    6. The real relevance of McCarthy to today: McCarthyism was a serious attempt to remove from positions of influence the advocates of communism, the willing supporters of communism and communists, and persons who would prevent the removal of those who give aid and comfort to the enemies of America. It’s a serious question, because just as we faced it with Communism in the Cold War 1950s, we face it with Jihadism today.
    An analogous situation would be if an al-Qaeda or Hezbollah sympathizers were working in the State Department or another sensitive agency of government today and keeping such affiliation secret. Joe McCarthy demonstrated the fact that Communists had no more of a right work in our government than Nazis or a Klansmen or affiliates to terrorist organizations. Do Jihadists? If today, someone ‘plead the fifth’ on whether they were a member of Al Quaeda, or Hamas, or an islamic Jihadist organization, would we let them remain in sensitive positions in the Government? No, we’d remove them and rightly so.

    7. The real more balanced story on McCarthy is now out there, raised by Conservatives who are challenging Liberals to own up to “McCarthyism is evil” as a fable:

    Ann Coulter’s new book “Treaton” is based partly on the theme of rehabiliting McCarthy after 50 years of demonization:
    “McCarthy was not tilting at windmills. Soviet spies in the government were not a figment of right-wing imaginations. He was tilting at an authentic Communist conspiracy that had been laughed off by the Democratic Party.” -Ann Coulter, Treason.

    Medford Evans said: “The restoration of McCarthy … is a necessary part of the restoration of America, for if we have not the national character to repent of the injustice we did him, nor in high places the intelligence to see that he was right, then it seems unlikely that we can or ought to survive.”

    In summary:
    The strawman view of McCarthy and McCarthyism as 100% wrong and a dangerous force in American politics is 100% wrong. Describing McCarthyism as a “witchhunt” is also false – there really was a serious problem of Communist infiltration into the US Government, in particular the State Department, at that time. It posed real security risks and real spies (many of whom were never caught) operated for years in sensitive posts. The demonization of McCarthyism for 50 years has served mainly as a useful rhetorical cudgel by Liberals against Conservative attempts to point out connections between Liberals and far Leftists and to descredit anti-Communism itself. But that demonization is a fraud, as anyone who honestly looks at the real historical record can discover.

  21. @ Joe NS:
    Yes, we know that McCarthy saved the world. And wasn’t fit to collect George Marshall’s soiled socks.

    The strawman view of McCarthy and McCarthyism as 100% wrong and a dangerous force in American politics is 100% wrong.

    Indeed. The commenter from 2003 (found the original, unfortunately not linkable) showed a poor grasp of a “strawman” argument, since he’d just made one. I’m trying now to imagine what a world in which McCarthy and McCarthyism were 100% wrong would be like… I guess that would have been a world in which the Soviet Union was more in the right than its propagandists ever claimed, yet had no sympathizers.

    And here’s an example of a point where semantic drift turns into an upending of American freedom by those posing as its defenders:

    An analogous situation would be if an al-Qaeda or Hezbollah sympathizers were working in the State Department or another sensitive agency of government today and keeping such affiliation secret.

    Are AQ and Hezbollah really analogous to the Soviet Union? I don’t think so. I think they’re very different phenomena. More important, what’s a “sympathizer”? Is “sympathy” the same as “affiliation”? It’s an important question because in a world run by the McCarthy’s and Patrick’s, there is no stopping point. First, it’s the “affiliated.” Then it’s the “sympathizers.” Then it’s the people who oppose going after the affiliated and sympathizers – the sympathizers’ sympathizers, and then it’s just anybody who’s on the other side of the Inquisition, which is always right as long as it’s not 100% wrong. A man who implicates Marshall in a “conspiracy of infamy so black” is capable of thinking himself and the country into anything, and, given power, is much more dangerous than 100,000 spies.

    The Venona Files prove the following: That we tolerated some number of spies, and survived with the country as we know it intact. The alternative would be having done to ourselves what we would have needed to have done to root out all spies, all betrayal, all failure to measure up according to the point of view of people like McCarthy. We’ve had historical examples of governments that dedicated themselves to that proposition and they are generally remembered as the worst epochs in recorded history.

  22. Well let’s not be theoretical, before Major Hassan who was flashing Salafi sympathies from the Killeen expressway off ramp, there was
    Major Ali Mohammed, he had worked in Afghanistan despite his ties
    to the Istamboiuli ring of assasins, he had been an CIA asset involved with Hezbollah, and a known Islamist militant since 1993, yet he was questioned and apparently let go, to wit he helped among other things case the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. When he was finally apprehended he provided some of the details for the December 1998 PDB, that included the details of the involved of Seyf al Adel and Mohammed Atef, the former is supposedly still active in Iran, the latter is ‘a dead parrot’ since 2001

  23. When do we ever see a nuanced view of McCarthy, the ‘Blacklist narrative’ of this oppressive time, is generally the agreed upon template, because it rationalizes their poor judgement

  24. @ CK MacLeod:

    Who said anything about McCarthy saving the world? Why would you make such a self-serving inference based on nothing above whatsoever?

    I’m trying now to imagine what a world in which McCarthy and McCarthyism were 100% wrong would be like. . . . I guess that would have been a world in which the Soviet Union was more in the right than its propagandists ever claimed, yet had no sympathizers.

    As a matter of simple logic this is an utter mess. What was McCarthy’s contention? That some individuals in the Federal government were conscious agents of or were sympathetic to the USSR. That’s called an existential affirmative. It’s contradiction, i.e., that which would make him 100% wrong, is a universal negation: “There were no individuals in the government who worked on behalf of or were sympathetic to the USSR.” Since that is patently false, its negation, by the rules of deductive logic, must be true. In other words, McCarthy was right. The point I was making is that he was more right than even he realized. But more pertinently, McCarthy’s being 100% wrong in what’s actually at issue here has nothing at all to do with the Soviet Union being in the right and having no sympathizers. You’re getting at something there, but I can’t make out what it is.

    Secondly, you make a silly argument about a slippery slope from sympathizers to affiliates with a clear implication that absolutely everyone would be swept up in a wild chain of accusations. Hogwash! Read again:

    McCarthy was not concerned w[ith] any citizen’s views, he was concerned with the views of those who could betray secrets or influence American foreign policy [emphasis supplied].

    The interview with Howard Fast is illustrative. Howard Fast was a card-carrying communist, who worked for the government, who refused to admit it. So he lost his job. Are you saying that, not answering, he was entitled to keep it? That the government did not have good, prudential reasons for knowing the answer to that question? No one has a right to a government job, and Fast did not go to jail. William Philipp’s, long-time editor of Partisan Review, and quite a lefty himself, was asked his opinion of the activities of HUAC. He said that he had no objections to writers, intellectuals, and filmmakers being communists or sympathetic to communism, yet, at the same time, he saw no reason why they should be excused for lying about it to a congressional committee. I think that that’s just about right. McCarthy’s entire argument was that some individuals who were or had been communists or communist sympathizers and were in a position to commit espionage or to influence American foreign policy so as to favor Soviet aims were also concealing those important and extremely relevant (in 1950) facts about themselves and their past political activities. Moreover, they were being assisted by others in government in concealing those activities. No one has a right to a government job regardless of his background, and no one has a right to lie about himself to keep a government job.

    Finally, your remarks on the country surviving more or less intact are too complacent, I think. As it happens, Stalin got the bomb when he did because of espionage. When he did, 1949, is particularly relevant here because, in the opinion of many historians, without the bomb he would not have supported the North Korean invasion of the South in 1950, indeed he would have intervened to prevent it, a war that cost 38,000 American lives.

    I think it obscene that there is even such a thing as the “McCarthy Era,” as if the activities of that opportunistic and bumbling drunk were the most important thing going on then. It would be better to name it the “Hiss Era,” after an elite traitor who was ferociously defended (for 40 years) even though he was as guilty as Judas, a man who may usefully stand for a whole lot of other people, in government and out, who were actively committed to the overthrow of the United States. McCarthy was a scapegoat. His accusations were turned back on him in an Orwellian fashion. McCarthy was the traitor! He betrayed American ideals! A bunch of hot air. Treason means something. Joe McCarthy certainly fell well short of the American ideal of a statesman, but he didn’t commit treason. The people he was after did. It’s truly grotesque.

  25. The Venona Files prove the following: That we tolerated some number of spies

    What is the issue with spies,everybody spies on each other. If we catch them,we have a wide variety of response,the same when they catch us,it’s a huge game,like Len Deighton entitled his great trilogys.
    1983 – Berlin Game
    1984 – Mexico Set
    1985 – London Match/
    1988- Spy Hook
    1989 – Spy Line
    1990 – Spy Sinker

    I am amazed that we still can act so outraged when some nation has the indecency to do to us what we do to them, they just don’t understand that we’re the good guys,and our enemies are the bad guys,and our friends are the good guys(up until the point we are no longer friends/TURKEY),and our enemies are the Bad guys,until they become our friends/JAPAN-GERMANY)
    Nations in Transition/Israel,Russia,China,

  26. @ Rex Caruthers:

    RCAR, your moral relativism is really getting out of hand. You need to get some sleep and clear your head. We’re talking about Stalin’s spies here, man. Would you be so complacently even-handed about all this if it were Hitler’s spies in the 1930s? Oh well, we spy on the Nazis so it’s all the same. Get real.

  27. Joe NS wrote:
    @ Rex Caruthers:

    RCAR, your moral relativism is really getting out of hand. You need to get some sleep and clear your head. We’re talking about Stalin’s spies here, man. Would you be so complacently even-handed about all this if it were Hitler’s spies. Oh well, we spy on the Nazis so it’s all the same.” Get real.

    Do you mean the Stalin that was our Ally throughout WW2,and the Stalin with which we negogiated the fate of Eastern Europe. You mean the Stalin that sacrificed millions to defeat Hitler. Friend,then enemy,just like I said.

    And regarding Hitler,what did we do to help the Jews,1930-1945? We are what we are,let’s say a mixed bag,so let’s get real.

  28. @ Rex Caruthers:

    Yes, I mean that Stalin. Is there another one? And forget the Jews. We had our own reasons for spying on the Nazis. They had their reasons for spying on us. The equivalence you focus on is simple-minded and purely formal. Their reasons were not remotely our reasons in a lot of ways that matter. Your devil-may-care insouciance as to the question of which side of the conflict has the upper hand morally, as if the US and the USSR, the US and the Reich, were so many peas in a pod, and who can sort them out after all?—Well, it’s puzzling, to say no more. Espionage has consequences, some of them lethal to one side or the other, so the sides would seem to matter, and the moral approbation we bestow on or withhold from one side would seem to matter even more. We’re not talking about a novel here, Rex, where you may suspend disbelief and root for whomever you wish.

  29. You’re getting at something there, but I can’t make out what it is.

    That the commenter you quote is out of his mind. No one claims that McCarthy was 100% wrong on the level of his simple contention. Depending on how you choose to define “McCarthyism,” we have a different question on its level of wrongness.

    My main contention, which you prefer simply to dismiss to the extent you acknowledge it at all, is that the conduct of a McCarthy or of the Islamophobes, and the consequences of encouraging it, must always be costly and dangerous in themselves, regardless of the (debatable) accuracy of whatever claims.

    Political life is not a scientific experiment conducted in a petri dish. You don’t have the option of “inconveniencing the bad guys only, everything else the same.” Someone and his or her friends are empowered. Others become attracted to their cause or seek to duplicate their success. Innocents are swept up and ruined. The guilty adopt countermeasures and exploit new weaknesses. The fabric of democratic political culture is torn – at some point, likely long before anyone realizes it, the damage may become irreparable and irreversible. In assessing McCarthy or Islamophobia, the important question isn’t “does (or did) anything they say make sense?” Of course, there are elements of truth in the anti-Communist and anti-Islamist discourses. The question is “What would empowering them and pursuing their objectives on their terms (have) cost to us, and would the cost be (have been) worth paying?” Would an escalated witch hunt, and all of the distortions of our political and cultural life that it would have entailed, have saved any of those lives in Korea? Would it have prevented the Soviets from obtaining an H-bomb? Or would it have more likely made for an even more awful and costly struggle? I think the answer to the last question is very probably yes.

    Legitimizing McCarthyism, Islamophobia, and any other form of demagogy in contravention of fundamental American commitments is potentially much more dangerous than hydrogen bombs. Supposedly, we cared so much for the American way of life, we were ready to use hydrogen bombs, in large numbers, to protect it, even at the costs of the lives of millions of our citizens if not of civilization itself. History offers plenty of proof that the kind of conspiracist inquisition McCarthy was advocating and pre-figuring is incompatible with Americanism, long before it turns into a Reign of Terror or a Great Purge or the Fall of the Republic – while it has no examples of hydrogen bombs actually being used to destroy and kill.

  30. @ Joe NS:
    John Keegan in his historical examination of espionage and military intelligence argues that there’s no evidence that they’ve ever been decisive overall – the side with the greater military potential losing because of bad intelligence, or the side with the lesser military potential winning because of good intelligence. The history of the Cold War bears that out rather convincingly: The Free World was much more vulnerable to espionage, and apparently much worse at it, than the Communist world. The only way to have changed that would have been to cease being free. We made the proper decision.

  31. And forget the Jews.

    If you take the Jews out of the equation,all that remains on the Europeanside of WW2 is a continuation of the WW1 European power struggle that has little to do with our interests. We would have done lots of business with whoever the winner was?
    Then,We could have concentrated on Japan,and let Europe settle out its own mess,
    except for the Jews,the fly in the ointment,only the Jewish question changed the entire moral situation, Again,what did we do to help the Jews,1931-1945?

  32. @ CK MacLeod:
    John Keegan says that there is no evidence that espionage has ever been decisive. But a lot of information concerning espionage never becomes available. How did Israel learn about the nuclear facilities that North Korea had built in Syria? How did Israel know how to destroy them with no recorded casualties on either side? I don’t know. Espionage may have been a decisive factor. A nuclear Syria could have wiped Israel off the map. One could argue that Syria just wanted the weapons for the sake of security, but that’s unlikely. As it turned out, possessing the weapons led to an attack against Syria. We don’t know how crazy the current monarch of the Assad Dynasty is. Of course, we do know how crazy the current monarch of the Kim Dynasty is–crazy enough to think that Israel is North Korea’s greatest enemy.

  33. We’re not talking about a novel here, Rex,

    I’m not certain that I could learn more about the realities of the world of intelligence from you than the likes of Graham Greene,Len Deighton,John Le Carre,Charles McCarry,WFB Jr,Joseph Conrad,and Bryan Forbes for starters

  34. You’re looking at the events in total isolation while assuming answers to critical unknowns – including the huge assumption that Syria would have shortly become a nuclear power, under suicidal-genocidal determination. I see no reason to accept these assumptions.

    Keegan never makes the claim that espionage and intelligence are tactically irrelevant, but he does point to examples where even the possession of near transparency regarding the other side’s strategies and intentions (see, e.g., Enigma) had little demonstrable effect on the actual course of battle. Part of the problem is the famous fog of war: A general staff conceives a strategy, and, by the time the orders reach the battlefield, the battle has moved somewhere else, or the strategy turns out to be totally inadequate and ill-conceived, and that goes for strategies based on “good” intelligence as well as on bad.

  35. @ CK MacLeod:
    Another possible example. In 1967, during the first two hours of the Six-Day War, Israel destroyed all of Egypt’s airforce while it was on the ground. Did espionage play a role? I don’t know. In any event, that’s what determined who won the war.

  36. @ CK MacLeod:

    Sheer gas-baggery! this “patrick” writes a detailed comment, with supporting documentation, and without responding to anything save by a logical quibble, which you bungle anyway, “patrick” is “out of his mind.” This was a simple practcal question: Was McCarthy wrong? Was he mostly wrong? Was he right? Was he mostly right? That’s all. You respond with windy declamation. The matter is elevated to a histrionic level: the survival of democracy in America. The surest sign of a bankrupt argument, one based in sentiment and deliberate ignorance of fact. You are sprinting for the goal and you don’t even have a ball in your hands, just air. Get off the soapbox for a second and answer the question I put to you: Did those accused have the right to decline to answer the question of their communist party membership or sympathies and keep their government jobs? As a practical matter, that was all that was going on.

    But of course answering the questions honestly would have thrown a whole different light on the matter. All these “progressives” and their causes might appear to be less than wholesome when seen to be in the service of a foreign power. Who tore the country apart over the refusal to answer the questions or, when they did answer them, to lie? It was the Left, not McCarthy. The Left and their abettors screamed at the top of their lungs that the question couldn’t even be asked, that to ask it was to usher in Fascism, which conveniently made any answers irrelevant. Of course they would react that way. They knew the extent of the questionable activities of a great many people in government from the 1930s onward, some of whom had changed their minds about communism, true, but who wanted to reserve the right to protect others who had not. They screamed and screamed and created some smokescreen called “McCarthyism” to direct the attention elsewhere, anywhere but at them. They’re still screaming incontinently, about a vicious “McCarthyism” that never was. It’s their handy brain-dead, all-purpose mode of deflecting attention from the Left’s multifarious mendacities and out-and-out treasons since 1917.

    Of course, it was a rolling smokescreen. At first, McCarthy and Nixon and HUAC and, eventually, Truman, were simple wrong if not malevolent. Hiss had been framed. The Rosenbergs had been railroaded. Harry Dexter White and Lauchlin Currie and Owen Lattimore were completely loyal Americans. The CPUSA were just liberals in a hurry. After while those confabulations became impossible to sustain, so the smokescreen moved on. Hiss et al. weren’t that important, a ridiculous assertion, but any old iron will do when you’re desperately trying to change the subject. Espionage? Big deal and ho-hum. All’s well that ends well. Notice how far we’ve come from the simple question of whether McCarthy was right. That’s the purpose of a smokescreen, after all. Finally, 50 or so years later, after the treasons of the CPUSA and the revelation of 300 or so Soviet agents—they’re were supposedly only a few bad apples—come to light via Venona and the collapse of the USSR, well now, the smoke wavers again: It was all so long ago. Who cares? What’s really important was Joe McCarthy and “McCarthyism,” alá Jon Lovitz, “Yeah, that’s the ticket.”

  37. Gas-baggery yourself. You really have a problem when people don’t just swallow your line.

    Did those accused have the right to decline to answer the question of their communist party membership or sympathies and keep their government jobs?

    Sure. Absolutely. They should have been promoted. Happy?

    You still haven’t confronted my main contentions. Instead, you just contrive to repeat yourself. The cost of indulging the likes of McCarthy, a man ready to drag Marshall into his inquisition against vast conspiracies to destroy the country, would be greater than the cost of preserving the constitutional and natural rights of several hundred spies and the several thousand innocents (as a beginning) who would have had to have been destroyed to get at them.

    They knew the extent of the questionable activities of a great many people in government from the 1930s onward, some of whom had changed their minds about communism, true, but who wanted to reserve the right to protect others who had not.

    Reprehensible! People who wouldn’t want to be ruined or responsible for the ruination of others, standing on a mere matter of freedom of conscience!

    It’s their handy brain-dead, all-purpose mode of deflecting attention from the Left’s multifarious mendacities and out-and-out treasons since 1917.

    You need to update your brief. Loyal members of the Tea Party right now consider actions against those “multifarious mendacities… and out-and-out treasons since 1917” as Exhibit B or so of the evil of Woodrow Beelzebub Wilson.

  38. The illustration I was trying to make was the notion that Islamist were by themselves, worthy alles because they were antiSoviet or anti Nasser, sort of the same idea that Communists were just being ‘premature antiFascists, well the record shows they were nothing of the kind.

    Now Wilson was the first anti Soviet president, by the circumstances that they interfered with his proper resolution of the Great War. Some would say that the “Red Scare” under Palmer was the great evil, like the Chaffee report, but that’s putting the cart before the horse. Bullitt was one who had a lifelong case of WDS,
    which was ameliorated by his tenure at Spaso house. The abandonment of the Riga axioms, were in fact a very bad move,
    it presumed that Stalin was a rational actor, where the ‘facts on the ground’ would have dictated otherwise

  39. The equivalence you focus on is simple-minded and purely formal
    Sheer gas-baggery!
    which you bungle anyway,
    You respond with windy declamation.
    The matter is elevated to a histrionic level:
    The surest sign of a bankrupt argument,
    one based in sentiment and deliberately ignorance of fact.
    You are sprinting for the goal and you don’t even have a ball in your hands.
    Get off the soapbox for a second and answer the question

    I always thought Ad Hominum remarks were the surest sign of a bankrupt argument.

  40. @ George Jochnowitz:
    It’s been a while since I read Keegan’s book. I seem to recall that he discussed the Six-Day War in some detail – including the uselessness of good intelligence to the Arabs. I’ll try to check next time I’m at the library.

  41. Rex Caruthers wrote:
    The equivalence you focus on is simple-minded and purely formal
    Sheer gas-baggery!
    which you bungle anyway,
    You respond with windy declamation.
    The matter is elevated to a histrionic level:
    The surest sign of a bankrupt argument,
    one based in sentiment and deliberately ignorance of fact.
    You are sprinting for the goal and you don’t even have a ball in your hands.
    Get off the soapbox for a second and answer the question

    I always thought Ad Hominem remarks were the surest sign of a bankrupt argument

  42. My view of Wahhabism is informed by Doughty, Vassiliev, Gold et al, and like it or nor, they direct the public face of Islam. In the 50s after we aided Nasser’s rise, we used them as a foil against similar sentiments in Yemen. Despite their role in agitating Anti semitic sentiment we relied on them, more and more, specially after the Peacock Throne collapsed, not realizing the circumstances had changed. Afghanistan was just one corner of our misreading as their
    influence was replicated in the Horn of Africa, in circumstances we
    see to this day

    Deighton was cynical about the particulars of the British secret service, but not the necessity of the mission, unlike LeCarre, He is the counterpart to McCarry in this way, because of his working class roots. His “Million Dollar Brain” for one, outlines the same critique, that CK McLeod, is making about unchained anticommunism

  43. NARC,

    The Best Espionage Fiction* I ever read was entitled Spymaster by Donald Freed (Pseudonym). The Company by Robert Littell was well worth some effort also.

    *I read it in 1981,and I believe it is mainly factual,but with espionage.who knows

  44. Donald Freed, the JFK conspiracy theorist, who seems to dispatch any suspicion of the Rosenbergs, paints Che as some innocent victim, tries
    to make Philby as some last minute crusader against the assasination, plus it reads like Harold Robbins. McCarry is much better than that
    tripe. He paints the Christopher/Hubbards as two sides of the Wasp
    dynasty, who dominated espionage and national politics from pre WW2 Germany to the present day

  45. One vote for Spymaster
    One Vote against*

    We need a tiebreaker

    *”narciso wrote:
    Donald Freed, the JFK conspiracy theorist, who seems to dispatch any suspicion of the Rosenbergs, paints Che as some innocent victim, triesto make Philby as some last minute crusader against the assasination, plus it reads like Harold Robbins. McCarry is much better than that tripe.

    NARC,SPYMASTER is a novel,not history,the tale is told by a narrator who is not necessarily Freed,and he may be an unreliable,misleading storyteller. SPYMASTER,as narrated,makes historical sense to me ,in the context of the influence of the OSS/CIA on familiar events.

  46. Haven’t read the Spymaster, but I enjoyed the Company quite a bit, as well as other Littell. The TV miniseries wasn’t bad either as those things go. Also Gerald Seymour deserves some consideration I think. McCarry I consider in a class by himself, even if he occasionally gets just a tad too weird. And what do we think of his JFK theory?

  47. I’ll ditto the Company, which unfortunately for the Czar,does oddly vindicate Golitsyn’s “Sasha’ theory adopted by Angleton,. Littell seems to have turn too openminded with ‘Open Circle’ where he paints Hamas & the settlers by the same Brush. He collaborated along with Ed Klein on a disquieting take if Israel had lost the ’67 War.

    Having had relative who had a bad turn in relying on the CIA’s word at the Bay of Pigs, I’m more than a little about their vaunted accumen. Maybe they need to be replaced by something akin to McCarry’s ‘Foreign Intelligence Service

  48. Vivian T. J. Prescott is the Wasp embodiment of Freed’s of a dissident in the WASP overclass, determined to rule the world. The Good Shepherd tried a slightly less malevolent take, on the matter

  49. McCarry I consider in a class by himself, even if he occasionally gets just a tad too weird. And what do we think of his JFK theory?

    From his novel,”Tears of Autumn”,check out “A Death in November” by Ellen J Hammer

  50. I think the most obvious one, that Oswald did it fits the facts, Gus Russo, who spent the better part of a decade chasing all these Mob
    and CIA plots, ultimately concludes this, with some suggestions that
    the DGI was involved

    But Paul Christopher’s supposition of straight revenge by the Diem regime’s retainers, is no less crazier than other theories proferred over time

  51. narciso wrote:
    I think the most obvious one, that Oswald did it fits the facts

    No argument from me,but one point,thousands of documents closely held by the Kennedy Family Archives,and still unclassified by the CIA/FBI are not part of the public record,without this info,a “definitive”
    document is not possible. Even Bugliosi who wrote a 1500 page tome on the subject,had to admit that he “assumed” that nothing in the unavaliable documents would contradict his conclusions.

  52. Bugliosi is an odd one, he debunked most of the most interesting theories, including the French Corsican one, by proving the alleged
    principals like Sarti were in jail at the Time, Since 2001, the Joannides
    connection has been at the forefront, but that is quite understandable
    as with MCveigh who was giving off bad readings for a while, and Atta
    who had been observed by the Hamburg station without much success
    they didn’t want to admit that they flubbed the background of the President’s most likely assasin

  53. The Ateyba was the tribe from which the leader of the Mosque of the Grand Siege arose, Uteibi, a whole host of folks, at Gitmo, bear than clan designation, including one who passed on, from the Yemeni side.
    Kahtan, is that of the 20th hijacker, who would have taken out the
    Capitol, not a few shaheeds in Iraq and elsewhere, including the fellow
    who wanted to bomb the Word Cup

  54. Mayor “Napoleon” Bloomberg

    Mayor Boobberg – er, Bloomberg – and his backstabbing cronies must have a $tupendou$ rea$on which they can’t reveal for wanting a sharia-hugging mosque near Ground Zero.
    But the sharia “cobra” they’re toying with can quickly grow up and not be choosy as to whom it will strike soon after it announces “Smile, you’re on Candid Scimitar and will soon be buried in a scimitary, ha ha ha!” – proving that one good backstabbing deserves another!
    Incidentally, I thought up the following pro-life slogans which anyone is free to reprint: “Unborn babies should have the right to keep and bear arms – and legs and ears and eyes etc.!” and “Unborn babies should have the same right to be born alive that abortionists had!”
    God-haters and America-haters may not realize how high the collective temperature has now risen in the hearts of true American patriots – many of whom are now willing to die for America right here in America if they get pushed completely over the line!
    Since the nation’s headquarters for treason is the White House, readers can enjoy related material if they google “Obama Supports Public Depravity” and also google “Sandra Bernhard, Larry David, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher, Sarah Silverman” in addition to googling “Obama…destined to become a black-slavery avenger.”

    A Kansas Patriot

    [the foregoing was viewed recently on the net]

Commenter Ignore Button by CK's Plug-Ins

Leave a Reply to George Jochnowitz Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

*