Commenter Archive

On “Jennifer Rubin: Pro-Trump Republicans will get nothing, not even retention of a House majority – The Washington Post

Additionally: What matters most to Republicans, or in politics as in many other matters to the "white working class," may be whether they believe or perceive themselves or their status to be in grave jeopardy. They seem to believe the flood is coming, so it's matter of seizing and fortifying as much of the high ground as possible. If and after the wave hits, they may face an empowered majority that will see little or no or anyway much less reason not to adopt the same or many of the very same tactics to reinforce their power and impose their will, regardless of formerly respected constraints that the "conservative" party, in its desperation, has been willing to undermine.

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Mr. McKenzie - there's no timer til the next break for a commercial, so no point at all in selectively quoting a text that's right up there for all three of us to see. When Rubin writes "the precedent of firing an FBI director investigating the White House," and you shorten it to "the precedent of firing an FBI director" in order to frame some bit of ridicule first in her direction, then presumably in the direction of anyone who finds what she has to say of interest, you're not arguing a point worth arguing. You're trolling us or playing to a non-existent gallery.

Ditto when Rubin attaches the word "uniquely" to "dishonest," but you respond as though she had extended the adverb comprehensively to the full list of adjectives. Specifically on the matter of honesty, the assessment she is referencing is quite defensible. All presidents have lied. All people lie. Few presidents or people compare to Trump on the matter of compressing so many prevarications, contradictions, falsehoods, and distortions into such small spaces so constantly and so consistently, and in making flagrantly dishonest arguments central to his political practice, from Birtherism to the latest fumbled cover-up. The only stories he seems able to keep straight for any extended time are the most flagrantly ridiculous: That his inauguration was fantastically well-attended and his inaugural speech highly rated, that millions of illegal immigrants were the only reason he did not win more raw votes than crooked Hillary, etc. Otherwise, given the President's manifest verbal and intellectual disabilities, his difficulty holding or completing a thought at all, or recalling what he himself was saying a few years, months, weeks, days, or minutes ago, or caring, the question is whether he and the Administration he leads are capable of honesty, as the term is commonly understood, except inadvertently.

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A framed map depicting the 2016 popular vote distribution, which roughly replicated the current US population distribution by density if you color-coded low density in red, high in blue, was recently spotted being brought into the White House. If we view the character of the US government to be of, by, and for the people rather than of, by, and for the acres, the map points to a distorted view of electoral support for the President in November 2016. Treating counties as equivalent units amounts to an even more extreme distortion, kind of an intellectual gerrymander, since "county" in the U.S. covers the ground, as it were, from Pop. 82 Loving, Texas, to Pop. 10,000,000 Los Angeles, CA. By land mass it covers 53 sq. mi. Kalawao, HI, to my own beloved San Bernardino, 51,590 sq. mi. I'll not pause to review the so-called "county equivalents," and instead end my Google-Wikipedia researches here.

Anyway, I'll readily acknowledge, as often in the past I have been among the first to note, that, if you judge results by attachment of the letter R to numbers of representatives at all levels of government, vs attachment of the letter D, then the R party has done quite well for itself up to the present moment. The exercise in which Jennifer Rubin in her column, and bob and I way down here, have been indulging, is one in which credibility is lent to the Q poll, as in, "if the election were held today" and so on: So: If the Q polls and other polls are to be trusted at all - are as close to the final results as were, say, the much-abused 2016 presidential election polls - if the election were held today, and voting decisions roughly matched polled party preferences according to historical patterns, then... the very same judgment currently declaring the Rs the great historical winners will have to be reversed, just as similar ones were reversed in 2006 - 8, prior to the next reversal, and so on.

There are other ways to assess results. The judgment of history in 1942 might have seemed, to those who have no understanding of the idea of the judgment of history, wholly in favor of the German Reich and Co, or of Napoleonic France in 1812, etc., very etc. In short, the someone or -thing is surely coming, as it comes to all, great empires and nobodies on or off the internet. The question now is whether what the Rs finally leave behind will be a shattered visage of Donald Trump and the inscription "Look on my works, ye Haters and Losers, and despair!"

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Wade you raise a lot of good points pointing to the frequent political dynamic of not only both the R's and D's, but pols everywhere through all time ie snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. While I don't agree with a number of your specifics, the general point remains.

However what I had in mind especially in my comment, and for some time now, is how many people seem to vote R but want the D program to a significant degree. The current health care debate illustrates this.

Many people voted for Trump, and R in general, but want the benefits and protections of the ACA. Or rather want, enhanced benefits and at least the current protections of the ACA.

R's frame this as "of course people want to keep stuff once they get it" as if the task of the R's is to protect people from themselves. Most people don't like the ACA not because it impinges on their liberty, but because it doesn't sufficiently solve the problem of obtaining medical insurance for people in the individual market.

Building on CK's comment, the R's sunk costs in the ideology of negative liberty have made it quite difficult for them to propose govt actions to even begin to solve the problems people identify themselves.

Put another way, Paul Ryan's frequent appeal for "conservative solutions" just about always, to this observer, privilege "conservative" over "solutions".

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Quinnipiac finds: “By a 54 – 38 percent margin, American voters want the Democratic Party to win control of the U.S. House of Representatives. This is the widest margin ever measured for this question in a Quinnipiac University poll, exceeding a 5 percentage point margin for Republicans in 2013.” You wonder whether that number has to hit 20 percent before Republicans, etc.

I'd like to think the flaw in this--regarding "control of the U.S. House of Representatives"--would go without saying.

When voters on a district by district basis begin to evince a similar tendency, then we'll know Republican control of the House is endangered, but not before then.

an incompetent, scandal-plagued and uniquely dishonest administration.

That's right, folks. More dishonest and scandal-plagued than the Nixon administration during the Watergate crisis--more dishonest than LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin--more dishonest than JFK and his serial adulteries and concealed health problems--more dishonest than Bill Clinton and "that woman, Ms. Lewinsky"--

remaining unconcerned with the precedent of firing an FBI director

There was widespread and bipartisan dissatisfaction with Jim Comey. As to "the precedent" of firing an FBI director, it certainly isn't unprecendented--and if it were, it would probably be desirable to establish one, since the position of FBI director itself has a somewhat chequered history.

confirming some of the worst nominees in history

Gee, that's "fairly described", isn't it? That's not a sectarian perspective.

including an attorney general who appears to have reneged on his promise to recuse himself

Really? So an attorney general who recuses himself from a particular investigation can no longer superintend the FBI director?

Well, even were that the case--which, of course, it isn't--that doesn't prevent the deputy attorney general (let alone the President of the United States himself) from superintending the FBI director.

"

they have no choice or interest-calculus other than to continue as they have been until someone or -thing compels them to stop.

Yes--and we've yet to hear any plausible scenario about what that "someone or -thing" would look like, let alone be. A Democratic Party besotted by an alienating bourgeois ideology practically calibrated to offend (and even demonize) the white working class and relegated to coastal enclaves, however locally strong (I mean, have you looked at a map of last year's election on a county by county basis?), almost certainly isn't the "someone or -thing". Ergo...

"

It occurs to me that, in my preceding comment, I said that the Democrats "lost the Senate to boot" in last year's election. I'd like to think that anyone reading along would take my larger meaning despite the mistaken expression, but before anyone corrects me, permit me to acknowledge the mistake. If I could revise that clause it would read something like "failed to take either chamber of Congress" or some such.

"

Or there's a sunk costs syndrome going on as well. They gave in to what became the Tea Party, beginning at latest with the failure of "Compassionate Conservatism," and their only unifying theory, vis-a-vis the federal government and its intrinsically progressive constitution, is negation. They've now put more than 10 years into it, and they have no choice or interest-calculus other than to continue as they have been until someone or -thing compels them to stop.

"

Bob, I really can't help but marvel at the stated assumption of your comment: namely, that the Republican control of the Presidency and Congress is "not durable against the long term trends." Granted, there's been a lot of talk on that line over the past fifteen years or so, much of it plainly self-serving. But what we saw in the last national election was a veritable collapse of the Democratic Party on a national basis--a showing that really ought to alarm every committed Democrat but apparently does not, given the paucity of self-critical analysis from that quarter.

We hear endlessly about how Russia "stole" the election (by releasing internal comments of Clinton campaign and DNC insiders that were widely viewed as being offensive) and how Jim Comey disrupted Hillary's sure-fire election prospects at the eleventh hour. We've heard relatively little about how moribund Hillary was as a presidential candidate and as a corollary how moribund the Democratic National Committee cum Politburo is--the Wikileaks documents exposed the way in which the DNC rigged the outcome of the nomination process in the face of a groundswell of enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders. By contrast, we surely learned that the Republican National Committee played fair and square by their candidates--and proceeded to win a major victory.

Yes, the Democrats are strong in certain prominent urban enclaves on the West and East coasts. Yet, the fact that the Democrats failed to win the last election against a candidate widely presumed to be unelectable, that they lost the Senate to boot, and that they suffered a calamitous decline in their representation in state legislatures would seem to testify to the widespread unpopularity of the Democratic Party across an extensive geographic distribution--and, unfortunately for the Democrats, popularity across an extensive geographic distribution is just how elections for both the President and Congress are structured in this country. Whether talk of "long term trends" disfavoring the Republican Party turns out to be true or false, those long term trends won't affect the short term of the 2018 or 2020 elections.

If one is going to speculate on the imminent demise of the Republican Party on the national level, one can only do so by positing the correlative rise of the Democrats. It really doesn't matter much if millions of Hispanics keep piling up in California or if thousands of Somalis keep piling up in Minnesota. Long term trends like that don't help the Democrats win the Presidency or the Congress; and, in the meantime, those same trends antagonize the white working class throughout the country--and the white working class really is a critical constituency. Right now, President Trump has a lock on that constituency (witness the continuing enthusiasm of his rallies), which isn't concentrated in a few enclaves but is evenly distributed throughout the states. Will the Democrats do anything to pick that lock or will they double down on the same elite bourgeois ideology of "diversity" that lost them the white working class in the first place? All signs point to the latter prospect.

As for Speaker Ryan's comments on the "one shot" of passage for the AHCA, that seems to me a reference only to internal dynamics of the Republicans in Congress vis a vis Obamacare, not to their electoral prospects overall. I can't imagine that any Republican official at this point in time is sweating the party's prospects against a moribund Democratic Party that is in process of losing its historically core constituency.

"

P Ryan's first assessment of the AHCA's chances of passage, something like "this is our only shot" seems to express a greater anxiety that they only have the WH and Con. majorities because of a variety manipulations they've been able to make to the electoral process, and to the biases of the processes itself. And they these are not durable against the long term trends. So it's "now or never" ie there is a basic desperation to their political calculus. My experience is that people do not make consistently good decisions under the duress of desperation. So a variant of political survival has already kicked in, and for the time being seems to be crowding out the form That JR wonders about

On “All the News that’s Fit to Kill (OAG #8)

For what its worth, the Guardian has a long read on Accelerationism that's covers a lot territory.

On “Jeffrey Goldberg: The Obama Doctrine, R.I.P. – The Atlantic

Wade, your last paragraph is crucial to your argument. Certainly it expresses economically the source of the weight of a country's foreign policy, and to an extent any leader of that country, but not entirely. GWB rather easily evaded that weight and embarked on a pre-emptive policy in Iraq.

Obama evaded that weight by taking no kinetic action in Syria.

Whatever the weight of a country's foreign policy, individual leaders mostly do, and should have their own ideas based on their understanding of their country's interests and place in the world. These ideas rise to knowing what you're doing, only when they rise to a level of detail, logic and sophistication. There is no evidence that fellow has this, not only in foreign policy, but man other areas as well (who knew it could be so complicated?)

Knowing what you're doing increases the chances of success in the aggregate but not necessarily in the particular. Once when my wife was facing a difficult surgery, I asked the surgeon how many of his patients died from the procedure. He gave me a number and said it was because he took the difficult cases. That was the correct and reassuring answer.

That fellow merits the charge that he doesn't know what he's doing because he has no track record of success and failure in the matters of State, and has been disinclined to educate himself.

Were it only the case that people praise actions because they think the actor knows what he's doing. On second thought, such a state may have messy consequences for households with small children and pets.

That fellow is notorious for his need for praise and attention. What better way to try to influence him than to praise him when he happens to do something of which you approve?

He expresses respect for his military advisors, as do most others. As I said in my first comment here, "people around him who do know what they’re doing cannot save the day because he’s the Pres and they are not."

That this strike fits into the general past weight of US foreign policy means little in the current situation. A "one off-er" was a common description of it.

Until he shows otherwise, I will regard him as the Pres leading from no where, who doesn't know what he's doing.

"

Not sure where you got the idea that I ever wrote “[President Trump] doesn’t know what he’s doing!!!!!!" - bob's idea for a possible rallying cry - but I don't see why it matters.

To the extent that various politicians worldwide may have voiced degrees and types of support for the Khan Sheikhoun retaliation strike - e.g., referring to justification for it without ever specifically endorsing it, voicing reservations about its legality while keeping the onus on Assad, suggesting that it would be supportable if part of a larger strategy, suggesting that its status as, apparently, a one-off, meant that problems with it need not be emphasized, etc. - then, indeed, they, too, in multiple senses, may not know what they're doing. They may not know what they're doing because they cannot know what they are doing in present circumstances. They may not know what they're doing in part because international law itself is a bit of a mess on the underlying questions, and because the value of international law seems uncertain to them, and because they are incompetent in other ways, and perhaps not least because what the notional Leader of the Free World intends to do and what he is doing are not really knowable, in other words because the specific problem of President Trump is that, even if he were to decide firmly in his own mind what he is doing and intends to do, and were to articulate one or both clearly, there is nothing in his conduct and record that suggests he would understand himself to be bound by his word, however clearly stated. To me it seems doubtful even that the words "firmly in his own mind," which presume the existence of sound mental faculties, are to be applied to him at all.

Whether or how much the last problem
- the empty head of government and state problem - matters defines the natural experiment that we have set up for ourselves, with ourselves as natural experimental subjects. That in that experiment a kind of policy inertia in line with a kind of strategic inertia or strategic necessity may already be trumping Trump, or trumping Trumpian political and intellectual inconsistency, may be for us a good thing or at least better than certain worse things. There are names for the various schools of political science that predicted something like this. I've never denied such hopes, and I wouldn't deny them.

It does not follow, however, that an openly admitted distaste for Trump and associated alarm at the reality of President Trump must equate with particular "love" and support for whatever "establishments" or for agreement with whatever whichever of their representatives happen to have said whenever. I've long been of the opinion - as I have, I believe, expressed with non-Trumpian consistency - that the Trump presidency represents a system failure, and that a system failure is our failure. Put plainly: I think and have said that I think he's our fault, as I think and have said that Obama's Syria fiasco was also our fault as much as it was Obama's fault in particular, and I also happen to find the degree of moral, political, and also legal confusion at work and shirk in the world today to be downright spectacular. We - from the best and the brightest to just plain folks like you and me - did these embarrassing things, or failed to come up with anything better, together. That's what I think, and I can't see why anyone should think anything else.

"

The conversation that you and Bob were having at the time that I wrote my comment had everything to do with the recent missile strike on Syria and little to do with the specifics of Goldberg's piece, and it was to that conversation I was responding.

The idea that Obama's (hypothetical) response to the recent use of chemical weapons in Syria would have been superior to Trump's must be balanced against the univocal support given by the political establishments of the G7 countries to President Trump's action.

In addition, the strike has garnered widespread support from the U.S. political establishment--even Chuck Schumer gave his whole-hearted blessing to President Trump's deed. So I don't see how President Obama's ostensible premeditated consensus-building could be imagined to supersede President Trump's existing Congressional and foreign consensus after the fact.

In your original comment, you claimed that “[President Trump] doesn’t know what he’s doing!!!!!!”--a line that you subsequently removed before you published my comment. With or without its explicit presence in the documentary record, the expression of that sentiment itself was about the only thing really going on in your virtue-signaling exchange with bob (on both your parts) and I wanted to make the obvious point that, given the broad consensus on the part of political establishments both at home and abroad in favor of the missile strike--to say nothing of its seamless consonance with President Obama's policy--those same establishments must not know what they are doing either. (Right, my friend?)

I also want to make clear that I myself do not think that President Obama's refraining from striking Syria was a "blunder"--I only said "that [it] was widely construed by establishment commentators and politicians at the time [or better, afterwards] to have been a blunder." Again, I sought to make the point that Trump's action was fully in accord with political establishments here in North America and Western Europe.

You're certainly correct, though, that the missile strike represents an about-face from Trump's tweets at the time Obama was contemplating his own response to the Ghouta incident, as well as Trump's rhetoric throughout the 2016 campaign. I can only refer us all to the common-sense apothegm that runs, "Meet the new boss,..."

As it turns out, pace Donald Trump himself, the president does appear to have a foreign policy--more or less the same foreign policy as his predecessor. And that would seem to be due to the fact that said policy is not and never has been the product of individual intention or inclination but is rather the consequence of permanent and constraining geopolitical interests that transcend and outlast any given administration. Appearances to the contrary tend to be cosmetic, as no one should know better than you.

"

The depiction of Obama's actions and omissions in 2013, and of the criticisms made, is far more complicated than the notion that his decision against military action was a blunder. Nor is it at all clear that if Obama - or Hillary - were in office today, they would have reacted in quite the same way. It seems more likely that, if they were intent upon launching a punishment strike, they would have sought to assemble allies internationally and in Congress first, and in relation to clearly enunciated or re-enunciated goals. If f they had ended up ordering unilateral action, and so without Congressional authorization, they not only would have been following an already enunciated logic, they would be following a logic that they themselves had openly embraced and repeatedly re-stated. In the case of Trump, we have someone who in 2013 was arguing against any involvement in the Syrian Civil War, and who throughout 2015-6 and since winning the election had maintained that line, instead insisting on an ISIS-only focus.

The claim that bob is making, beginning from that offhand remark of Goldberg's is not about any particular action, for or against. The question amounts to whether Trump can be said to have any policy at all, since no one has any assurance that what he forcefully declares one week, or day, or hour will still be his position next week, or day, or hour, or that he even conceives of the possibility of beining held accountable for his declations - whether in relation to Assad or with Assad's conduct or to China or North Korea or health insurance or his tax returns or Janet Yellen anything else.

"

Yes you and many of us have been alarmed for some time, and said so many times, and with considerable force and insight. What I'm advocating, tilting away at windmills, spitting and pissing into the wind, is to make at least a gesture away from the insight, understatement, hope, sincere and pro forma both, that somehow it's not as bad as it seems, or maybe things will get better, of maybe somebody will be able to influence that fellow to follow a better, more informed, considered path, a gesture away from all of that and say something as clear and bald as, "He doesn't know what he's doing!"

Imagine the effect of mass marches at which the slogan shouted and signed was "He doesn't know what he doing!" Or of panel after panel of pundits saying, one after the other, not clever insightful wisdom, but simply, "He doesn't know what he doing!" Or of Chuck and Nancy not saying well honed political stilettos, but only "He doesn't know what he's doing."

"

President Obama articulated a doctrine of sorts regarding U.S. policy vis a vis the Syrian civil war, which more or less stated that the U.S. would not concern itself overmuch with the Syrian conflict unless chemical weapons were used. In that event, President Obama clearly suggested that an American military response would be in order.

When chemical weapons were subsequently deployed in the Ghouta incident, President Obama hesitated to carry out his implied threat--a hesitation that was widely construed by establishment commentators and politicians at the time to have been a blunder. Even so, the Obama administration managed to secure an agreement from the Syrian regime to surrender its remaining chemical weapon stockpiles.

The most recent episode of chemical weapons use in Syria--which U.S. intelligence is apparently certain was carried out by the Assad regime--suggests either that the Syrian government cheated on the previous agreement or has since produced fresh stock--clearly an unacceptable development for ongoing U.S. policy.

If President Obama were still occupying that office at this point in time, it seems probable that he himself would have carried out a strike not at all dissimilar from the one President Trump ordered. In any case, the strike--admittedly more symbolic than practical--is a logical step relative to a U.S. policy enunciated by the Obama administration and obviously embraced by the Trump administration as well--namely, expressing severe disapproval over the use of chemical weapons in contemporary conflicts.

Despite the fact that political establishments in both North America and Europe aren't inclined to laud President Trump, the missile strike has garnered widespread support from those same establishments, with the recent G-7 summit of foreign ministers being a good example. If "[President Trump] doesn’t know what he’s doing!!!!!!”, at least in this particular instance, then it is evidently the case that the same political establishments so beloved of C.K. MacLeod don't know what they're doing either.

"

I'been in a state of alarm ever since he started winning R primaries, for a time allayed (mis-allayed?) by my mistaken trust in the remnant good sense of enough of the electorate, so in a heightened state of alarm ever since 11/9...

...but you can get used to anything, at least until it kills you.

As for not knowing what he's doing, that's been clear for a while. It also seems that he does not care and never has cared very much about the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing, assuming he even knows that much. Or he doesn't care or care very much, or for very long, until and unless some problem his ignorance and carelessness have created has walked up and hit him in the nose while shouting out its identity.

We might as well have a Magic 8-Ball as president - a malevolent Magic 8-Ball. It does seem that his defense people are capable of imposing greater consistency and responsibility to some significant extent, but our government is not designed to be run from the DoD

On “Better Twitter Embeds 2: Stripping the Convo for the Sake of the Convo

[…] developed an approach for achieving the desired effect via function, but this post is still good […]

On “Jeffrey Goldberg: The Obama Doctrine, R.I.P. – The Atlantic

As usual, JG writes a well written thoughtful piece that helps one to better understand events. Since Trump incomprehensively provided Assad with a atta boy fireworks display, (military strike you say?????) I been reading and seeing/hearing all kinds of thoughtful, well presented perspectives about this event.

I do think it's time for these well informed, articulate commentators to just say in plain language what seems obvious to me.

That fellow doesn't know what he's doing.

For example, JG's dry, "President Trump’s governing foreign policy doctrine is not easily discernible, of course." will not do.

He doesn't know what he's doing and that should be alarming to everyone no matter what your political orientation. The people around him who do know what they're doing cannot save the day because he's the Pres and they are not.

Of course we can observe that no one can "know what they doing" in that job. But the present situation far surpasses this baseline meaning, and it cries out for the explicit, alarming observation that "He doesn't know what he's doing!!!!!!"

On “American Idealism, American Identity – Thread by @dhnexon, with Brief Comments

I think you and I see the main thrust or main problem with Nexon's argument diametrically differently. I think it's easy to place all four Republican presidents you name (and all of the other presidents since Roosevelt, at least) on the same plane, and I think Trump, perhaps against his will, is being dragged back onto it or is succumbing to its gravity or inertia. The differences are 1) that Trump doesn't seem even to understand it, as he doesn't seem to understand much of apparently anything except how to work a room and fool a fool, and 2) that people who are more self-consciously anti-liberal or far-right in the more Old World and America First senses have latched onto him and pulled him along in their direction. At the same time, as I was trying to suggest in the tweet about dual nature of American identity (flag and (liberal-constitutional) republic), and as I've been trying to say all along, the Trumpian ("national populist") impetus has always been there, and there's no nation without it.

I agree with you more on the second part, though I'd say Obama fell more within classic retrenchment, and during his 2nd term was readier to fish than the citizenry was.

"

I'm not sure if the prism Nexon is using here works. Not the least reason is it's tough for me to put Ike, Reagan and both Bushes on the same plane even if one is trying to draw out a distinction with Trump.

I also remember a lot of Soros haterade from the 'traditional' right on the internet during the Bush II administration, in the vein of 'he's not promoting liberal democracy, he's promoting an international progressive socialist agenda'

To me, it still comes down to that the foreign policy establishments, left and right, have never really come to grips with the 'what ought to be' questions that emerged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Berlin Wall. Defeating Nazis and other fascists was easy and straightforward. Defeating Communism was a longer slog, but eventually accomplished (with a lot more people taking credit for it than they deserve). Then after a decade of just operating in the moment, a whole lot of people thought they found their new lodestone after 9/11, but Bush went on a disastrous neo-Wilsonian adventure, and Obama couldn't decide whether to fish or cut bait.

On “Brain ‘rewires’ itself to enhance other senses in blind people – Harvard Medical School

I misquoted you with my "We strip away..." What I meant to refer to was your "So the business of cognitive science will be to strip away what is non-essential to thinking and confine it to the realm of mere things." So as I understand you, thinking would be not a mere thing. But what is it? Your characterization of any characterization as an interesting failure is interesting.

Nagarjuna goes on to distinguish essences as nullities versus things without essence that drive their "thingness" from their functionality, their place in the matrix of causes and conditions. This contains all the begged questions and paradoxes of mereology in general.

So his solution is to argue that things are only things because of their functionality. That we can perceive them and how they function proves they are things. "Essence", since it does not reside in the matrix of causes and conditions, does not function, so therefore does not exist.

Nargajuna occupies a unique place in Buddhist thought. He is regarded as the person whom Buddha prophesied as the only person following him to really get it right. So, at least Mahayana-ites all have to assert they conform to his writings - with more of less success.

So all this is probably way more response than is functional, but its been tough writing for quite a while now, and this just flowed to a greater extent than has been true. So I went with it. Hope you found it reasonably interesting.

"

Nagarjuna's reasoning is correct, based on his presumptions.

...if “we strip away the non-essential” fully, we are left with nothing.

Or, more precisely, we are left with "no thing," which would not be the same... thing... as absolute nullity.

"

Perhaps my Buddhst buddies' long version can be condensed to a stanza.

Augmenting the Dalai Lama's famous (poorly paraphrased as)"if science contradicts anything Buddhism teaches we'll have to revise it" he said something about science's basic "ontological confusion". That is describing how something works is not describing its essence - since essence does not exist.

The essential Nagurjuna puts like this:

Essence arising from
Causes and conditions makes no sense.
Essence arisen from causes and conditions
Would be created.

So if "we strip away the non-essential" fully, we are left with nothing.

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