Comments on Dialogue with John: Sacred Texts/Tests by Rex Caruthers

It's very rewarding to see my opinions agreed to by the Pundits of Conservative thought. I've made a point many times that the way America wins wars is to require a Declaration of War,Constitution Style. Today is the Anniversary of the start of The Korean War,and at NRO/NYPOST,today Arthur Herman makes a point about my point.

"Korea also set the precedent for formally undeclared wars, from Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan, wars that divided more than united public opinion, and for relying on the UN and international coalitions to lend moral support to US military muscle -- with steadily diminishing returns over time."

Thank you Arthur for pointing out the obvious,and we just keep repeating it again & again expecting a different result. That's is the current definition of----, (you guys know)

narciso wrote:
Rex, I don’t see what that comment has to do with 41, we have an out of control government, a leviathan that lays waste to everything
it touches, yet we are supposed to go on out own way, pretending
it doesn’t exist, like Harvey the invisible rabbit.

We have an out of control Government because WE the Individual Citizens are out of Control;that's the place to start. We will continue to pretend until we can't pretend anymore;and that's not just us,that's the history of our Race. Which is why the Concept of Exceptionalism is so annoying,how are we any different than any other large civilization? They all go bankrupt sooner or later;unfortunately,we're headed that way much sooner than expected.

John I read your Post and #41,I think this is a paraphrase of what you're saying:

"On Lake Wobegon "all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking and all the children are above average" says the great American satirist Garrison Keillor in his "Prairie Home Companion" world."
"Yes, all of us! We're Americans. Don't confuse us with the facts, with reality. We're the greatest in history, a legend in our own minds. And a rapidly mutating virus is spreading this lethal pandemic far beyond the shores of Lake Wobegon. Yes, folks, the "Lake Wobegon Effect" is hard-wired in America's brain, an illusion of superiority, a smug arrogance where each knows we are the best, the chosen ones."

(1)In John 1:29, we read, “Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.” This is echoed in the Agnus Dei, part of the Mass or Eucharist service of the Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, and Lutheran Churches.

(1)*John was a mystic writing about 70 years after JC died,having no personal experience with him. He wrote his opinions. The Four Churches you mention have a lot in common.

(2)Believing in the Trinity includes the belief that Jesus is simultaneously human and divine

(2)*Many Christians are not Trinitarian(Unitarians),and belief in the Trinty is not essential to the Christian Faith.

(3)"--- then we have to assume that he did not say the words attributed to him."
(3)*That why I referred you to the Jesus Seminar,they have spent 25 years in researching attribution,and have come to the conclusion that very little from the Gospels was actually said by J. John is the most flagrant,with practically nothing that he quotes,being actuall said by J.

(4) "But if we don’t have the faintest idea what he said, since none of it is independently attested, why should we be interested in him at all?"

(4)*Ditto Lao-tzu,Buddah

(5)On the other hand, we should be very interested indeed in the words that gave us a force as historically significant as Christianity.

(5)*The essential message of JC is like Buddah/Laotzu,it undercuts the appearance of historical significance replacing it with a more powerful message. The message of the"CHURCH" is the message of Ozimandias by Shelly.

(6)As of this moment, there is no movement within Islam that denies that the words of Mohammed were said by him.

(6)* In addition to the work of the Jesus Seminar,the great Translator,Stephen Mitchell wrote,"The Gospel according to Jesus Christ",most of what the New Testement attributed to JC was eliminated by Mitchell.

George/"He doesn’t have the power simply to forgive sin. Punishment has to go somewhere. In Christianity, the punishment went to God Himself, since Jesus was both God and the Son of God."

George,You are very knowledgable in your areas,and I've learned a lot from you,but many of your opinions on Christianity are not very accurate like most of #35.

So here's one for you:

George,a view of the Crucufixion:

Crucufixion #1 was a mythologized event to set JC up as a future risen God rather than the simple execution of a man/criminal.

Crucufixion #2 was the destruction of a real man's life replacing the facts of that life with the specific Mythos in order to establish the "Church".

he wanted to be a nobody

That's not exactly right either,he knew that that was reality,it was not necesarily what he wanted. Ultimately,we are all nobodies,and He was only interested in Ultimate things. Not much of a message to build a Universal Church on,that's why his message had to be changed.

George Jochnowitz wrote:
If the real JC wanted nothing to do with power and ordainment, then he wanted to be a nobody

YES,George,you're beginning to understand the difference between what was created using myth,lie,and a sliver of truth,to build a monster church,and the true historical reality of a great religious figure. Also see Dostoyevsky's "Grand Inquisitor" from Brothers Karamazov. JC understood along with a very few other religious geniuses like Buddah and LaoTzu that "All is Vanity". But you can't build a great church based on power,wealth,and coercion on that premise,can you?

"If the real Jesus never said anything about hell, then he is a nobody."

That is closer to the truth than the Fantasies created about Jesus.*
*Please read The Man That Died by DH Lawrence or The Last Temptation of Christ(Not the Movie)by Kazanzakis for a rerendering of the JC story.

"The religion that loves Jesu and worships him as both God and the Son of God has been an extraordinarily powerful force in world history. Despite its sects and variety, Christianity is consistent about damnation and about salvation through faith. That is its driving force."

That is 100% true George except that it has nothing to do with the Real Jesus,Christianity was made up by many others begtinning with Saul/Paul,who had their own agenda. BTW,Jesus knew this better than everyone which is the meaning of his prediction that he would be betrayed by his disciples,the ultimate betrayl was the founding of a CHURCH. This was also the meaning of the Turning Down of the Temptations by Satan,The real JC wanted nothing to do with power and ordainment.

CKM/ If Christianity is seen as “done” by Christians rather than ordained by the historical figure Jesus, that doesn’t necessarily make it any less “divine.”

You're missing something here,the historical JC didn't ordain anything anymore than Lao-Tzu,or Buddah ordained anything. "ORDAINING" is a result of a need for sense of importance by those who feel impotent. What you call divine,I'm calling pathological,and has nothing to do with JC,and has everything to do with a pretend JC.

narciso wrote:
Honestly are we going to take the word, of the Jesus Seminar, the kind of deconstructionist circle jerk, that’s got us in this mess in the first place

Then read Thomas Jefferson's thoughts on JC,or try Stephen's Mitchell's The Gospel According to Jesus Christ. Both Jefferson & Mitchell come to very similiar conclusions as the Seminar.
Mitchell is one of the most repected Translators on the Planet,so tell him about the Circle Jerk.

George,your response is irrational. Here's why:

(1)The words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels came from somebody.

(1)*If Jesus was a REAL person,only his actual words are relevant. JC isn't to blame for all the mistaken ideas that people believed about him

(2) Whether they were said by one person or many, they reflect a single tone and a single viewpoint.

(2)*Again,only the words/Deeds of the real historical JC are relevant,all the rest is a made up fantasy. Besides,there has never been a single tone/viewpoint for Christianity. Bottom Line,JC is not responsible for the religion based on his name. That was made up after his death.

(3) The person or persons who said these wrods has been loved as Jesus for two millennia. That has to be the meaning of the name “Jesus.”

(3)*again,you are confusing a made up fantasy with a historical existence. Jesus was a real person,the Jesus of the New Testament was mainly a made up person. Again.,it's not JC's fault that people have loved a fairy story about JC for Two Millenia,not his fault.

George Jochnowitz wrote:
It seems to have been Jesus who introduced the idea that if we don’t have faith we will go to hell: “He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

George,According to the Jesus Seminar,JC absolutely never said the above quote. In fact,about 75% of the quotes that have been ATTRIBUTED to him were UNLIKELY to have been his,the above quote,again according to the Jesus Seminar,was determined not to be said by JC.