@ CK MacLeod:

That’s not their plan, IMO, to the extent “they” have a plan, but, if it is, it’s a very poor plan.

they plan to bleed us dry.
how many more trillions can we pour into MENA?
insurgency is cheap.

@ CK MacLeod: lies. Both the Karzai and Maliki governments are wholly informed by islamic jurisprudence.
american soljahs are still dying in Iraq ....nearly a hundred so far this summer.......so are homosexuals.
You say, Highlander, that there is marginal improvement?
Relly? Where?
And at what cost to America?
Was it worth it? is the terrorist threat reduced?
the brutal truth is that 5000 american soljahs died because Bush was too stupid to understand that muslims vote for MORE islam when they can vote.
do you think GW "god/magog" Bush WANTED shariah law in the constitution?

Colin has already pointed out to you that voting for an Islamic constitution is not a problem unless you believe that Islam is a problem. You seem to need reminding of that.

then why is COIN trying to nationbuild secular infrastructure (for example, schools) instead of bricolaging existing islamic jurisprudence? My argument is the third culture argument of social network theory. Its BIOLOGY. COIN creates more terrorists than it kills. Because influence propagates along twice as many network connections....both socio-political and consanguinous. So it it is simple mathematics.
The Bush Doctrine aka "democracy promotion" never once acknowledged the fact that muslims will vote for Islam, not secularism, when they get to vote.
conservatives are stupid.

In recent examination of the failure of COIN and the mini-surge exposed by McChrystal’s resignation/firing in Afghanistan…. at Abu Muqawama’s counterinsurgency blog, it became apparent that COIN has the same flawed base premise as the Bush Doctrine….that somehow when empowered to vote, aka “democracy promotion”, the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan will vote for quasi-secular judeoxian-style democracy. In al-Islam the clergy are the lawyers, and vice versa. There is no secular substrate to build on– ISLAMIC law is the only rule of law available. Unless Bush was prepared to go into Iraq and build secular law schools from the ground up, and wait 50 years or so for the model of the rule of secular law to permeate the nation, the whole misadventure was doomed to Epic Fail.
So the upshot is 5000 young american soldiers have died because Bush and his “advisors” were apparently too stupid to realize that when muslims can vote, they vote for MORE Islam, not less.
I understand that even the Obama administration might not want to acknowledge this…it is pretty demoralizing for the troops. But this is the identical reason that COIN is failing. Because of the Dragon’s Teeth Axiom of SNT (social network theory) even population-centric COIN actually generates more terrorists than it kills. The reason COIN was successful in Anbar, is that al-Q was not local. But the Taliban ARE local, and so influence propagates among two networks, both the social connection and the consanguinous connection.
The only way to fix COIN is to start to exploit the existing “brightest” (most powerful) local influence nodes, the mosques and the local islamic jurisprudents/muslim clergy.
Leverage “the consent of the governed.”
But to do that we have to give up on the War on Islam.
The raving about shariah, stonings, fgm, and little girls not going to school is just misdirection at this point.
It is simply a way of not having to admit that we expensed 5000 troops in blood, and a trillion dollahs in treasure, to create an islamic state in Iraq with shariah in the constitution, religious political parties, and that declared a national holiday when american troops left the cities. And where islamic jurisprudence still calls the shots. Fadlallah was a major advisor to Maliki.
I think that realization would be heartbreaking for the families of the fallen.
But it is going to come eventually.
And meanwhile we have a choice in Afghanistan. Use COIN to bricolage the substrate, the existing embedded system of islamic jurisprudence to create a rule of islamic law, or expense more blood and treasure to achieve the identical result we got in Iraq…..after another 6 or 8 years.

@ Joe NS:they died for Bush's intransigent stupidity then. they died because Bush and his "advisors"
thought they could create a quasi-secular judeoxian democracy in MENA.
"That aside, here’s the neocon logic, as best I can explain: When a reporter acknowledges the passing of a revered, if controversial figure in a way that doesn’t sufficiently convey what a completely evil terrorist neocons think that figure was — that’s unacceptable. But when the United States spends nearly a trillion dollars, loses over four thousand of its own troops and over a hundred thousand Iraqis to establish a new government largely dominated by that same “terrorist’s” avowed acolytes — that’s victory."

@ CK MacLeod:5000 soljahs and 100000 muslims died for NOTHING.
im sure your argument is great comfort to the families of the fallen.

also too, al-Q is mostly Team Jacob.

You idiots, the reason you have to demonize Islam, is that is the only justification you have left for 5000 dead american soljahs and a trillion dollahs of taxpayer money. The Bush doctrine could never have worked. The clergy ARE the lawyers and the government in MENA--what you are going to? Build secular law schools from the ground up?
Retards. COIN is failing because it is based on the moronic Bush Doctrine. When muslims can vote, they just vote for MORE Islam.
So Iraq is an islamic state with shariah law in the constitution, religious political parties, that declared a national holiday holiday when the americans left Iraqi cities. And the religious clerics still control the government-- Imam Fadlallah was one of Malikis chief advisors. Eventually the american people are going to realize that 5000 young american soldiers died for NOTHING.
So you rave about fgm and stoning and suicide bombers......but it won't change the facts on the ground.
The Bush Doctrine creates islamic states at a horrific cost to Americans.....and COIN makes more terrorists than it kills.