I'm not sure what the stats are,but tough times usually mean that fewer jobs.

Governments in France and Spain have recently announced drops in the numbers of illegal immigrants coming to their shores, partly due to tougher policies, but also because of the global economic downturn.


Esthier, no, no, no. I've been arguing with MacLeod since I ran across him in the Commentary contentions blog, way back when they weren't afraid of comments from peanut gallery.
If we end up on the same side of anything, as we did here, it's the exception rather than the rule.


Don't give up on MacLeod. He's slow to respond, hates the personal little insults that a good argument often bring out, but I've had some great fights with him.


and I didn't say, or mean to say, that

Western nations tend to limit such things when they find the rates uncomfortable.

"tends to limit' mean banning. It means slowing the rate, choosing entrants with greater scrutiny, and putting more effort in monitoring the activities of immigrants.

Western nations tend to limit such things when they find the rates uncomfortable.

audiculous on June 4, 2010 at 1:38 AM

Since when? Or at least, since when has this been the case in the age where being seen as racist is a bad thing?


The Europeans are always quick to talk about American racism and intolerance, but they act far more ruthlessly than we do.


A rash of rapes in Oslo is what you think is evidence that Europe is being enslaved by Islam?

Immigrants are coming in faster and faster

show me something as evidence of that claim, preferably with some kind of lead as to where the immigrants are from.

A couple of years ago, people were claiming that the Europeans were being overawed by the birthrate of those immigrants in Europe, but it turned out that the statistical evidence really wasn't supportive of the claim and that immigrant birth patterns tended to approximate those of the established population after a short period.

So excuse my skepticism about other claims of migratory excess. Western nations tend to limit such things when they find the rates uncomfortable.

Black Yoshi, sorry but the idea that Europe is being overmastered by barbarousIslam is ridiculous and nothing more.
I would have done better .... if you had.

Go find some data to support that slurry and I'll see what I can do by way of meeting your expectations in argumentation.

Good dhimmi. Attack the blasphemers.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 11:45 PM

if you had more to bring to the table, it might be nice.

calling me a dhimmi doesn't do much, cause the charge is so lame.

I'm not MacLeod, MadCow and having fools call names isn't upsetting, and I enjoy it if there's some wit behind it.

try harder, do better, or bugger off,

Luka on June 3, 2010 at 9:29 PM

Which one is Geert Wilders?


Black Yoshi on June 3, 2010 at 8:47 PM

Europe, like Israel, is pursing a strategy of simple survival, hoping that some accommodation shown now to its future masters will buy some reciprocal kindness, or at least civility, for its future slaves.

thank you for the explanation.
are there these sort of things happening on your home planet?

Black Yosh
what does "the invasion of Islam" mean?

This horseshit about deleting comments, and the deleting of them, should simply cease.

Bad form is spending all the time talking about form .....

back to content.

His threats to delete my comments suggests that I’ve hit a nerve.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

or it might suggest that you don't seem to realize that you're being an ass.

Butch up, princess.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM

His threats to delete my comments suggests that I’ve hit a nerve.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

or it might suggest that you're being an asshole.

Butch up, princess.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM

couldn't it?

Esthier, I didn't mean to say that there were absolutely zero people in NYC outraged about the mosques. I meant that there just isn't very much opposition.

If you can find out how many people from the NYC area signed that petition, please let me know.

Right now, the total number of people signing is less than 50,000.....that's about less than half of one per cent of the number of residents around here.

hey, if you think that there's value in it, enjoy.

dried food, a little water, and always an empty (apple juice) half-gallon container.


go to


to find MacLeod, if you can't wait for him to appear here.

Esthier, as you noted, they've opted to face the public and listen to all objections and then let the matter be put to a vote by the community board.
The vote was 29-1 in favor of building.



The Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and the Manhattan Borough President are all in favor.
The citizens of NYC aren't expressing outrage.

I'm gonna go with saying that most of us( here in NYC ) aren't insulted by the mosque.
We're not shy here. If we were insulted, it would be loudly expressed and widely known.


I'm still pretty much aware of the reasonable standards in both logic and law.

but I'll not argue about a lack of common sense.

Heralder, actually one of the things that I admire about your joke is that it points up that some things are simply not open to a rational debate.

there's no way to reason someone out of liking or disliking purple.

MadCon perceives an insult from the site of the mosque and no attempt to get MadCon to consider that a personal reaction of MadCon's is not necessarily anything that's correlative to the builders intent.

MadCon''s pointing and shouting "purple" and even if he/she is colorblind, it's still gonna be purple to MadCon.

Ah. Another moral relativist. No such thing as an objective insult or objective insensitivity. Marvelous.

MadisonConservative on June 2, 2010 at 4:09 PM

again wrong, MadCon. there may well be objective insults or objective insensitivity, but a bald assertion of same is merely emotive language, not an ethical argument.

and an argument about insult needs to address the actual meaning of the word, particularly distinguishing between insults intended and insults perceived.

Heralder would point out that someone might consider it insulting to paint the mosque purple and I would agree that someone might be insulted.

I also would think that's their funkin problem and not any thing besmirching the painters.

I’m asking about that particular comment. It leaves no other explanation but bigotry against Muslims as a reason for being against the building.

People can also be stupid and illogical in this comment, but they’re all ultimately and necessarily bigoted.

and the comment quoted is

“for no other reason than you dislike the religion or want to blame people who’ve done nothing wrong,

see that word "or" there?

the sentence was meant to mean BIGOTRY OR misdirected blame.

some people may think that there's a rational basis for calling for the frustration of the effort to build the mosque. they may actually think that they know something of the thoughts of the people guiding the effort.
they may be casting aspirations on the effort because they consider some of the people ill-minded or criminal. I've had some discussion with a person saying that the mosque shouldn't be built because he distrusts Imam Faisal Al Rauf.

And you're right to doubt whether I'm open to hearing other arguments.
Nothing in my comments suggests that I am, but I think that I am.
It would have to be something different than anything I've yet read here, but in other places I've suggested that factual grounds for opposition might exist and asked the person mistrusting the Iman for facts as to why he's not trustworthy.

I've no opinion of you as yet, Esthier, and I'll take some care before forming one.


The explanation for why his comment was not an outright accusation of bigotry is: Purple

don't apologize. that one wasn't bad.


"insensitive" and "an insult" simply aren't arguments, they're indications of emotion.

I'm sorry, Esthier. I hadn't seen that you had responded to my comment.

I don’t understand how this, “for no other reason than you dislike the religion or want to blame people who’ve done nothing wrong,” is anything but blaming bigotry from opposition to the mosque.

I'm leaving open the possibility of ignorance, illogic, and stupidity, but I'll gladly admit that I think bigotry is in the mix as well.

I've yet to see anything advanced in opposition to the project that struck me as a good argument, but I'll also say that I've not read every comment offered in the various threads.

If you care to post some reasons for my consideration, I'll consider and respond.

Fairly promptly. (again, sorry for the omission).

skimmed it twice. some nice language in the closing paragraphs, but MacLeod is too long-winded for my tastes.

the argument is really simple, we should all be forever pissed about 9/11, but that was some other guys. we can be suspicious of the guys building this mosque and annoyed that they want to put up in lower Manhattan, but if they follow our laws, rules and regulations, they have every right to do so.
having them follow our laws, rules and regulations and getting treated correctly in return, is best for everybody.
busting balls without these particular people doing anything wrong is good for nobody.

one whimsical soul housed in one little carcass.

I respond differently to different levels of courtesy and of thoughtfulness.

them what's rude and without nuance sometimes get back same.

Vancomycin, find a germ of a thought somewhere.

No one is defending or apologizing for Islamists,

the defense is of freedom of speech, religion, association and the presumption of innocence.

these are not things near and dear to Islamists, are they?

so your pretty much confusing defending American values with "Islamistic" ones.

think some more.


So you’re pissed about us having an opinion,

you again misunderstand, but that's understandable, as you seem to do little else.

No one is pissed about you having an opinion
people are merely grossed out that your opinion is so flaming lame and worthless.

Reeeeaaaall sllllowwww,
for you britforshains,
bad opinions are bad because they are bad, not because they are opinions.


kindly show me the error of questioning the basis of the objection and/or explain why you think the accusation is of bigotry rather than unsound reasoning.

it's not your right to object that's being impugned, it's the reasonableness of the objection.
you've the same right to object to followers of Islam building a mosque near the WTC that other people might have to building a church near Mecca or a synagogue in Salt Lake City.
object all you care to and can, but kindly excuse those who say that you're wrong and shortsighted and would sell us all short if you had your way and the mosque was blocked for no other reason than you dislike the religion or want to blame people who've done nothing wrong.