I'd like to see a version of these debates that focus on a particular standard of morality (defined in advance) without resorting to the silly displays of pathos or nonsense about the definition of torture. I'm not interested in people's feelings or the law, but in what's right.
I also tend to reject the scenario where people have a threshold where torture is immoral, but then say someone in a ticking bomb scenario should do it an accept the consequences. This strikes me as a cop-out. Either it's a moral principle or it isn't.
Wouldn't be the first time. But thanks for the explanation. Wiki makes it sound like Buddhism.
Anyway. Arguments about the definition of torture don't interest me, nor do hyperbolic screeching about HOW THIS IS SO TERRIBLE!1!11. They both strike me as kinda disingenuous and stupid.
Consumatopia's arguments on The American Scene do interest me. It occurs to me that I'm open to persuasion either way, having not really made up my mind on the issue (after additional consideration). It's not simple and it's not easy - I kinda resent people who claim it is. Of course I'm not a subscriber to free will (I'm not a determinist either), but that doesn't necessarily matter.
The extent to which Sufism was influenced by Buddhist and Hindu mysticism, and by the example Christian hermits and monks, is disputed, but self-discipline and concentration on God quickly led to the belief that by quelling the self and through loving ardour for God it was possible to maintain a union with the divine in which the human self melted away.
(from the wiki article)
with:
The negation of free will, the negation of what it means to be human.
Granted I know precious little about Sufism but what I read.
Its over for me.
Realizing that torture is based on the exact same premise as slavery finished it.
The negation of free will, the negation of what it means to be human.
I don’t think you have any arguments left that can touch me.
Game over.
strangelet on April 28, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Perhaps we could discuss why you actually buy the rather silly notion that anyone actually possesses free will in the strictest sense?
You're ok messing with the brain and not the body? Dude. But you're all bent out of shape BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTIONALIZATION? Bizarre.
I'm sorry, but it's just weird. I really can't detect the underlying principles beyond assigning some sort of totemic power to the term "torture." Treaties aside, it's just weird.
I'd like to see a version of these debates that focus on a particular standard of morality (defined in advance) without resorting to the silly displays of pathos or nonsense about the definition of torture. I'm not interested in people's feelings or the law, but in what's right.
I also tend to reject the scenario where people have a threshold where torture is immoral, but then say someone in a ticking bomb scenario should do it an accept the consequences. This strikes me as a cop-out. Either it's a moral principle or it isn't.
Wouldn't be the first time. But thanks for the explanation. Wiki makes it sound like Buddhism.
Anyway. Arguments about the definition of torture don't interest me, nor do hyperbolic screeching about HOW THIS IS SO TERRIBLE!1!11. They both strike me as kinda disingenuous and stupid.
Consumatopia's arguments on The American Scene do interest me. It occurs to me that I'm open to persuasion either way, having not really made up my mind on the issue (after additional consideration). It's not simple and it's not easy - I kinda resent people who claim it is. Of course I'm not a subscriber to free will (I'm not a determinist either), but that doesn't necessarily matter.
Terribly interested in how you reconcile:
(from the wiki article)
with:
Granted I know precious little about Sufism but what I read.
I’m a Sufi.
strangelet on April 28, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Like this kind?
Perhaps we could discuss why you actually buy the rather silly notion that anyone actually possesses free will in the strictest sense?
You're ok messing with the brain and not the body? Dude. But you're all bent out of shape BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTIONALIZATION? Bizarre.
I'm sorry, but it's just weird. I really can't detect the underlying principles beyond assigning some sort of totemic power to the term "torture." Treaties aside, it's just weird.